My Dearest President;
Maybe the long hours and stress of your job have finally caught up, but just for your edification, it was your party that killed the immigration bill. In both the Senate, and in the House.
“House Republicans yesterday unveiled a resolution expressing their disapproval of the Senate immigration bill. It was offered by Rep. Pete Hoekstra (R-Mich.), and simply read: “resolved the House GOP Conference disapproves of the Senate immigration bill.”…His resolution passed the House Republican Conference by a large margin, despite the fact the Senate bill’s language has yet to be finalized.”
So the next time you’re going to go around casting blame, please remember it was your party that disemboweled this bill like a bunch of marauding zombies.
Ya nimrod.
Love always,
Sean
Photo: Last Republican Caucus Meeting w/ President.
Upon meeting with the President, John Bohner (center, vacant eyes) remarked
“I came away hungry, because really, there was no brain left to eat!”
Hey Sean,
Does that mean Tim Walz supports comprehensive immigration reform? Just checking because the voters have the right to know.
The House did not do a Bill Vote on Immigration as did the US Senate.
Tim Walz believes in Legal Immigration. Tim Walz believes immigration reform is a serious issue that deserves an ethical, economically sound solution. He supports enforcing employer labor laws to the fullest extent, using advanced technology to monitor the border, and increasing the number of professional border patrol agents. He also supports a path to citizenship for undocumented workers that requires them to return to their country of origin in order to begin the citizenship process.
So Walz supports amnesty, Kathy?
Walz > Amnesty > TRAITOR
Well I guess it shows how often in politics everybody can be wrong at the same time. The Republicans did kill the immigration bill so Bush’s comment there is wrong but the Democrats haven’t been able to summon the courage to do anything worth while since they were elected. They may pass feel good bills that are risk politically but can’t seem to find their backbone for anything else.
On another note.
am
Everyone knows the only reason the current laws that would enforce immigration were not enforced is because it is good for Business. In Bush’s world, if it’s good for business, it’s good for America, who gives a rat’s ass about working Americans. They’re doing the jobs Americans won’t do at that wage, right?
Really simply enforcing the existing laws would go a long way towards fixing this problem, and there needs to be a better plan to hold accountable employers who knowingly hire illegal help.
Why did so many Minnesota businesses advertise for help in Mexican newspapers?
An Iraq War funding bill with a clear timeline for progress that must be met or a phased withdrawl will be implemented is not worthwhile? KH, your independent libertarian republican view is wrong. The Democratic party has a slight majority in Congress and no majority in the Senate. Lieberman doesn’t count as a Democrat. The GOP has fallen back to a position of blocking the progress of any legislation offered by the Democratic party to keep that talking point alive until the ‘08 election. We were told in June to wait until September so we can see the effects of the surge strategy. How many US service men and women will die as a result of waiting? You’ve said in the past there is no difference between the two parties but if you take a moment and look at the most conservative GOP candidates vs the most conservative Democratic candidates, there’s a clear difference. Look at the most liberal conservatives and look at the most liberal Democratic candidates, similar difference.
Richard,
You use politics as usual as the defense for why nothing is getting done. It is the same reasoning both sides use with every issue. Look at the Democrats that voted for the war and to continue funding and are still going to hold their seats. It is because people like you excuse their behavior and allow them to cave and not raise holy hell in congress. The war would be ending now if the Democrats had not continued funding it. They did so only because it they were afraid it would cost them in the elections in two years. How many people will die in that time so Hillary can have a shot at the Oval Office?
I have been against this war from the beginning and so will the person, who ever that is, that I vote for next. How about you Richard?
With a veto-proof majority, the Democrats will get things done, I promise you that. Look for it starting in 2009.
It’s a reason for people to vote Democrat next year, and don’t think the Democratic party doesn’t know it.
Tim Walz’s stand on immigration is inconsequential to this, and you know it Chris.
What does matter is our increasingly deluded President blaming the failure of comprehensive immigration reform on the Democratic party. The Democrats in the House and in the Senate reached out genuinely in bipartisanship, and then when his own party scuttled the attempts at fixing this problem, he blames the only people who were working with him.
So, lets try to keep it on track shall we?
Sean
Is Tim Walz’ position on amnesty a sore spot for you, Sean?
You being a troll is a sore spot for me.
Sean
If the minority has so much power, as you claim, then are you admitting the majority is ineffective and powerless?
Does Walz support Amnesty?……..NO!!! Neither do I.
I am part Mexican myself and I do not like the influx of Illegals in this country. Mexico is partly to blame for this problem, which it wants to ignore. Fine those who are here Illegaly once they have been found out by ICE. Fine the American businesses who knowingly hire Illegals. Send the Illegals back to Mexico and have them get in line after those who are coming here legally. Yes, easier said than done.
As some have said, including Lou Dobbs, enforce the current laws we have now and the Immigration problem becomes less of a burden. No matter how high a fence the GOP wants to build, someone will find a way to clmb over it with a taller ladder.
KH, I’ll answer your questions even though you didn’t answer mine. I’m planning on voting for whomever stands the best chance of ending the war and getting the troops home soonest. Pretty simple. As far as who voted for the war, I’m pretty sure nobody did. What was voted on was giving the President authority to send troops into Iraq. At the time of the vote, inspectors were conducting searchs for WMD, and the President was saying war would be an absolute last resort. We now know that was a lie. Would the war be over if the funding were cut, no. The Pentagon has funding to keep the troops in the field for quite a long time should funding be cut. You continue to make this assumption that this period in our time is typical, politics as usual, I believe you said. That is decidedly not the case. I don’t excuse the Democrats that voted for the authorization but I do understand they did not imagine that this kind of fascist regime could take power in the US. And one last thing, who says I’m not raising holy hell with my congressman and my Senators?
Richard,
Any legislator stupid or dishonest enough to abdicate their responsibility to the executive branch does not deserve to be reelected. How is that for simple? What is being done now is another argument all together. The mess we are in now is almost impossible to resolve well and none of the answers people talk about, phased withdrawal, more troops, immediate withdrawal, etc. with result in anything but further destruction. Those that voted to allow Bush the power to do as he pleased are guilty of willful disregard for their responsibilities. The deception that the administration perpetrated, even if believed, did not give anybody a valid reason to vote the way they did. They still voted to allow the preemptive invasion of another country. Everybody that voted for the war is a failure and one of them is the Democratic frontrunner. There are a precious few who did not and I think they deserve our support.
p.s.
I didn’t mean that you weren’t raising holy hell. Just that those elected officials that say they are against the war are not doing everything they can.
Look at the origin of this thread. The President issues a statement so outrageous it boggles the mind. This lie, so big, will get reported with little or no analysis by the media. The right wing punditry will repeat it over and over again. I wish I could vote my conscience purely but that’s not our system. I will work for Kucinich, although Richardson is damned attractive but when the party makes it’s choice, I will work for that candidate. The more people, working at the local level, advocating for those positions, raises those positions to the level so that the ultimate candidate has to pay attention. We are victoms our own slouth and disinterest. That’s how progress gets made. Vote for whomever you wish or better yet don’t vote at all. It doesn’t matter because you take the position of the eight year who doesn’t get to stay up an hour later. We here in Minnesota have a proud heritage of being the most progressive state in the Midwest and at times, in the nation. Take part in that tradition and don’t let minor defeats sour your enthusiasm. Minor defeats should simply steel your resolve. How’s that for simple.
How’s this for simple:
Democrats control the House and the Senate. “Immigration reform” is a major issue. The Democrat-controlled Congress failed to pass an “immigration reform” bill. Thus, Democrats have failed to demonstrate they are an effective majority party by passing legislation on a major issue.
There it is. We’ve witnessed the birth of a talking point. Ugly little bugger, ain’t it.
Ah, yes, truth and logic hurt, don’t they, Richard? The blame-the-Republicans talking point you and others have relied on for the last six years no longer work quite so well when your party is in control. You had fun blaming the GOP for every problem that occurred when they were in control. Now the tables are turned. Enjoy.
Richard you use the same lines over and seem to return to using personal insults as a form of debate. I do work at multiple levels and have for years. I even spent a few weekend days on the house floor this past session and watched more hours of floor and committee debate on television then were probably healthy. I have always been independently minded which over the course of 22 years of political activity has made me about as immune to small defeats as a person can get. My problem is the decades of going in the wrong direction as both parties work to enrich themselves by convincing people that they have no choice but to support the current system.
Pride of place or party is part of the problem. People get caught up in having pride in Minnesota or being a Progressive or Conservative and forget to be critical of the people they support and elect. If you support a candidate you should be critical of them more than the rest. Not defend them because we are afraid that their sins will reflect poorly on us. We should demand more humility of ourselves and our elected officials.
Sean,
A little testy are we?
You know calling your political opponents names is about at the same level as Nitro. It’s pretty pathetic if you feel like you can just dish it out but can’t take a little debate!
So KH, you would support an instant runoff system.
And what names did I call you Chris, you loser.
Richard,
I’m looking forward to the one in Minneapolis where I live. The devil is in the details on those thought. I would love to give a different method a shot and hope we can use the Minneapolis experience to learn something.
I love instant runoff voting.
As you may have already heard, it maximizes voter participation and the available choices of candidates, it assures a fairer and more accurate representation of the voters, it eliminates the costs of the Primary and reduces the cost of campaigns, AND it leads to more informative and positive campaigns.
This initiative in combination with facts about the character of the candidates should lead to a more rational ad campaign for candidates on both sides, and our great country needs this sort of debate and ad campaigns so badly. I’m tired on campaigns led by personal attacks.
Just sayin’ what everyone’s thinkin’.
This is what would give third parties their greatest opportunity and still insure the majority of voters selected the winner. Add in public financing of elections and we’ve pretty well eliminated all the big money influence and increased the choices.
I will always disagree with public financing (I don’t like the idea of those in power determining who can run for office) but the rest of it I like.
Private financing insures only the rich and powerful or those beholding to the rich and powerful can run for office.
The rich and powerful won’t have influence in Washington if there is public financing? You make it sound as though campaigns are the only conduit to power for those with money. It will just mean they can make law without the possibility of groups of like minded individuals supporting an opposing message. The 1968 McCarthy campaign that helped end the Viet Nam war would not have been possible with public financing and people that were key in that campaign have come out against it. It is a political smoke screen that further entrenches the two parties. That and it is without question a violation of our right to unregulated (free) speech.
Look at Britains system. Much higher participation and much shorter campaign seasons. As far as who can run and who can’t are just details that would need to be dealt with. Realistically, it’ll be decades before anything close to public financed campaigns will be adopted.
I’m more worried about our civil liberties than participation numbers. The Bush administration is a good example of what happens when we give up liberty in the name of some “greater good”.
Kerosene Hat,
What liberties have we given up? I don’t see any liberties eroding away in this country. All I see are a bunch of people like Richard (who thinks that Bush knew about 9/11 and “let it happen”) and Nitro who think Bush is more dangerous than the people who killed us on 9/11. Aren’t you paying attention to what’s happening in the world, KH? If you don’t think what happened in London or Glasgow could happen here, I think you’re naive.
We are only as good as e treat our enemies. Habeas must be restored and the Patriot Act has more problems than I care to go into right now. We cannot compromise our liberty out of fear.
And we cannot defeat hatred by appeasement or willful indifference.
Really, what is the Democrat plan to protect this country from terrorism? All I read here is the Democrats have no plan to challenge terrorism because they don’t want to challenge terrorists over there (Iraq) or over here (discard the Patriot Act).
Kerosene Hat,
I don’t know how you can possibly advocate for giving terrorists access to our courts. Under the laws of war we are allowed to hold the people we capture until hostilities end.
Hostilities will never end because terrorism is a tactic not a country or an organization. If you then say it is Islamic extremism that we are fighting I ask how does the war in Iraq help? How does a military war gain ground? There are millions of Muslims around the world in countries like Indonesia, Bangladesh, Iran and in the United States who are becoming radicalized by our foreign policy. Invading Iraq was supposed to be about WMDs and an imminent threat. Once that was shown to be false those that support the war made up new reasons.
Chris, you think anyone in their right mind think that “Bush is more dangerous than the people who killed us on 9/11”. You are really mentally deranged. I definitely don’t think that, pally. This pattern you have of putting words in people’s mouths is getting very old.
Perhaps it’s people like you, LIARS, who are destroying our great country from within.
No Chris — not testy, not afraid to dish it out and receive it. It’s pretty simple, there is a post devoted to Tim Walz — remember, you commented on it too? And this post is not about Tim Walz, so you spamming this thread with comments about Tim Walz is simply being a troll.
This doesn’t require an advanced degree man.
Sean
Sean,
Would you like some cheese with your whine? You wrote how Republicans killed immigration reform, so I can only assume that all of the Democrats are in favor of it. kathy said Walz is in favor of legalizing the people who are not here legally. I only asked intelligent questions. I’m sorry if you can’t take it. It wasn’t like I called you a terrorist like Nitro called me. I’m still wondering when you people are going to ban Nitro.
If “hostilities will never end” (which we continually witness vis-a-vis aborted terrorist attempts overseas in the UK the last two years), then what’s the plan to combat these never-ending hostilities? What’s your alternative, KH, to combat terrorism other than ripping on the Patriot Act, the Iraq War, and GWB? The radicalization of Islam in other countries occurred far before the invasion of Iraq, back in the late ’70s and ’80s, so that’s nothing new. But, more importantly, how does re-fighting the lead-up to the Iraq War, which is what the Democrats and the Left continue to do, help defend this country? Ultimately, the vilification, demonization, and destruction of the President, which is what the Left and the Democrats have been focused on since 2000, will do nothing to improve this nation’s defenses. This idiotic, myopic obsession is not a coherent plan to combat terrorism that will cost us dearly.
The militarization started long ago due in part to other screw-ups like Iraq. Placing an unpopular shaw as leader in Iran, the support for Saddam that in part caused and lengthened the Iran-Iraq war, the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan, creating and expanding military bases in Saudi Arabia. The current Iraq war is only continuing this idiotic foreign policy that is a major cause in the creation of the enemy we say we are fighting.
These mistakes cannot be fixed quickly or without cost. They way to do it is not to repeat the same mistakes. If we stop using our military as our primary negotiating tool the extremist leaders will eventually loose their lever for controlling their people, fear of the United States. In the mean time we should spend the money wasted on Iraq on defending our boarders (including trade shipments), increasing our foriegn intelligence and the capacity of our courts to handle any subsequent prosecutions.
I hold the Democrats responsible for their part in all of this as well. I single our the Bush administration only because they were the ones who made the final call on a preemptive invasion. Their mistake and continued incompetence (I hope it is incompetence and not a ploy to expand the war further) is reason enough not to believe anything they say. The expansion of executive powers in the Patriot Act should worry anybody that cares about limited government, even if they like the current office holder.
Kerosene Hat,
I’m surprised you would blame the U.S. for supporting the Shah of Iran. He wasn’t, in fact, unpopular as you said. Under the Shah’s rule, women had the right to vote and drive cars, work and not wear Burkas. Many, many Iranians were educated in U.S. and other western universities. Their culture was vibrant and proud. The problem was that Jimmy Carter didn’t do anything to support the Shah when the Ayatollah and other radical Shi’ites overthrew the Shah and oppressed the population. Iran has a very young population and we can only hope that one day they will be able to overthrow the Mullahs and re-claim their proud Persian heritage.
I agree with you view of Iranian culture but supporting dictators is a risky business no matter how pleasant they seem. The problem is that we did not allow the Iranians to deal with their own internal conflicts and problems. At that point we became the bully that the extremists could use and have continued to use as the reason for their existence. Those extremists cannot govern their population without a credible fear of an outside force, we give them that.
Kerosene Hat,
The problem with your point of view is that bullies don’t need excuses. They can find them anywhere. It’s sort of like Ron Paul who basically claims that if we didn’t support Israel and whatever other grievances against the U.S. he claims, we would not have been attacked on 9/11. I fundamentally disagree.
Chris,
Why were wee attacked? I think Ron Paul’s reasoning is far better than the idea that they hate us for our freedom. People get angry enough to blow themselves up when they feel directly threatened, not because people on the other side of the globe get to watch Cinemax and eat hot dogs. It is our active manipulation of other governments that creates the hatred off our country. Unless somebody can show another reason for their hatred and then can explain how military force can change their minds and define what victory is I can’t imagine supporting the current “War on Terror” any more than the “War on Poverty”.
Lots of typos in that last post. Excuse my fat fingers.
Chris
I won’t be banned because I’m not a sick troll.
HA! In your face, pally!
Chris,
A good quick read. Not comprehensive but interesting none the less.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/bryan2.html
Kerosene Hat,
With all due respect, your comments about 9/11 are a little like blaming the Jews because of the Holocaust. There are al Qaeda attacks all around the world and in countries which do not participate militarily in other Islamic countries. Look at the murder of Theo van Gough for making a film that was critical of Islam. The terrorists are Islamists and they want to bring down the western world and subjugate non-believers.
Chris,
Why did the Bush Administration pass up on a chance to to kill many of Al Qaeda’s leadership in Pakistan? Does Al Qaeda consider Pakistan a safe haven for because of the Bush Administrations actions?
“A secret military operation in early 2005 to capture senior members of Al Qaeda in Pakistan’s tribal areas was aborted at the last minute after top Bush administration officials decided it was too risky and could jeopardize relations with Pakistan, according to intelligence and military officials.”
Story here.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/08/washington/08intel.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
A murder in Amsterdam is not an attack worthy of a war. I respect you Chris but the history here is not with you. Other countries have had their part in creating the radical part of Islam as well and even those that do not have to fear what others have helped to create.
It is also nothing like the Holocaust in Germany. Please, do not use analogies like that one unless you can be very sure of what you are saying. I get after people like Richard calling Bush a fascist because even though I do not like Bush I do not think it is an accurate description. The Jewish population in Europe did not provoke what happened to them in the least (unless you believe being Jewish is provocation) while the United States has been activaly meddling in other countries affairs for decades. This provocation by our government (and others) was a major factor in the creation of a radical, irrational movement that attacked innocents citizens here and elsewhere in the world.
Please explain to me how this administration is not a proto-fascist regime. I’ve been asking for awhile now and nobody can do it. C’mon, convince me of the errors of my way. Again, I refer you to the following. Take it apart, please.
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
Kerosene Hat,
A murder in Amsterdam is not worthy of war. But it is symptomatic of the Islamofascist ideology that is trying to take over the world. The extremists literally want an Islamic Caliphate from the Middle East through Africa and Europe all the way to the U.S. I’m not saying that Islam is a bad religion. But there are Islamic extremists who literally want to take over the whole world. The genocide happening in Darfur, for example, is being carried out by extreme Muslims. There is no doubt that if we left the extremists to their own devices they would still try to kill us.
This is my vote for the most appropriate yet so disturbling, Richard, from your link, because it is so disgusting.
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights: Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
The world is watching us.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29441
So kill them all and let Allah sort them out.
Richard,
I will take the time but I have a question first. Why is the definition you post the one we should go by? How about we find a definition from a source that a majority of people would agree to. I only say this so any discussion has some meaning in the end. I could define communism using the features of the DFL and then show how it proves the DFL is communist but circular logic gets us nowhere.
Good question, here’s the first source I went to when I asked the same exact thing:
American Heritage Dictionary:
fas
Chris,
For a certain amount of time you are right. But unless we are willing to go to every country where extreme Islam exists and brainwash or kill everybody the current method will fail. That and if they somehow get organized enough to start invading other countries than world opinion will shift against them instead of being against us. We are creating the enemy faster then we can kill them and loosing our allies in the process. We have to stop the cycle.
Now I as often as not use a term “proto-fascism” implying that we are not under a full balls out fascist system but we are most assuredly well on our way. This administration is actively engaged in the manipulation of public opinion to a Goebbels like extent. Look at the original post that started this thread. Sure both political parties put spin on issues and try and cast their arguements in the best possible light but lies are just lies. Chris, Veritas, and Wtm look at dissent as unpatriotic. They worship military solutions to the exclusion of anything else. Here’s another link and tell me how this fits in with the last 6 years.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqsep1898.htm
Please note the author and date.
The Top Ten Fascists in American history (according to Richard’s definition):
10. John Philip Sousa (composer of patriotic songs like “Stars and Stripes Forever.”
9. Henry Ford (inventor of the modern assembly line)
8. Childe Hassam (painter of “Avenue in the Rain” which depicts American flags over Fifth Avenue in NYC)
7. John Pass and John Stow (metal casters who made the Liberty Bell)
6. Francis Scott Key (author of the poem which became the “Star Spangled Banner”)
5. George M. Cohan (composer/writer of “You’re a Grand Old Flag”)
4. Charles Thomson (designer of the Great Seal of the United States)
3. Gutzon Borglum (sculptor of Mount Rushmore, which enshrined American Presidents)
2. Thomas Alva Edison (inventor who later founded General Electric and other mega corporations)
1. Betsy Ross (who sewed the first American Flag.
You forgot Charles Limburgh and Henry Ford and Prescott Bush. Chris, honestly, you lack the good sense, God gave fence posts. There’s nothing wrong with flag waving and patriotism. It’s the confusion of nationalism and patriotism where nations get in trouble. God love America, absolutely nothing wrong with that. America, love it or leave it. Fascist to the core.
Richard
America has become a “project” and it is the American people who are and will continue to struggle not go bankrupt because of their experiment. I think the experiment is going to fail. Some may argue it is already failing.
All I want to do is live my middle class life, pay my bills, raise my family and live the American dream. Unfortunately for me, at every turn, all of the things I have to pay for, like health care, gas, utilities, and food, all are costing more and more. Yet a small percentage of Americans, the richest among us, are doing very very well.
Last Christmas, the Wall street bonuses oduring the Christmas holiday equalled the total amount of money all of us working people spent on Christmas. It’s just insane, the amounts of money coddling the rich has cost the American people the last 6 years.
Just look at the record of United Health. This guy earned 1.9 BILLION dollars in stock options, money from those of us who are sick.
http://www.forbes.com/static/execpay2005/LIRRI3M.html
He is absolutely disgusting and embarassing. Articles about him praise him as a success story, and that’s even more disgusting. The “liberal media” is just a myth.
http://www.startribune.com/1069/story/386343.html
Nitro, we are to blame. Our slouth and disinterest has gotten us where we are today. I’m optimistic though. The sleeping giant of the American middle class is waking up and when that happens, hopefully the Democratic party will be able to keep up. Universal health care, affordable higher education, foreign policy that doesn’t embarass us as a nation, sane enviroment policy will be demanded. Invention and innovation is what this country does better then any other nation in history and when that energy is tapped into we will become unstoppable.
“Invention and innovation is what this country does better then any other nation in history and when that energy is tapped into we will become unstoppable.”
(clapping)
When the government reads my mail or emails, or can go to the library and check what books I’ve checked out, or listens to my phone calls all without a warrant we are dangerously close to fascism.
When the executive says the laws of the land don’t apply to him and his staff, when the VP says he is his own branch of government you might be close to fascism.
Freedoms are eroded little by little, bit by bit, “we need this power to fight the war on terror”. Did any of you read “1984”? (Oh yeah that was some liberal teacher that made read that book) The parallels are eerie, the endless war against a faceless enemy that allows the government to subvert the will of the people. “Big Brother” watching your every move.
Are you so blind in your unthinking loyalty to Bush and the fear mongers of this administration that you can’t see the dangers our liberty is in? I have said this before but the Nazi’s didn’t take away freedom all at once in Germany, they did it bit by bit, used propaganda and the “straw man” (Jews and “reds”)to blame for all their ills (now Muslims and Mexicans). Read your history.
All the while without much notice or outcry our economic strength is sold off to the Chinese by greedy Corporations who care only about profits and have no loyalty to their communities or country. A percentage of every dime spent in China geos to support the Red Army. The next super power, armed by American corporate greed, ironic isn’t it?
Wake up sleepy head!
Sorry about the typos, posted while watching the All Star game. (yes, some liberals like baseball)
If I was a little more creative I could’ve written my post like a Jeff Foxworty routine (substitute fascist for redneck).
If you tap phone calls with out a warrant, you might be fascist. and so on.
Sean, Nitro,
I real do appreciate that both of you want to work to keep the United States from becoming incrementally a more authoritarian state. I have always believed that the terms used to distinguish one authoritarian state from another such as communist or fascist are fairly meaningless. In the end they have the same effect.
To that end I hope you can understand my concern when Democrats support programs and activities that bring us closer to the type of government that none of us want. Those for me include a nationalized health care system, regulation on political speech through campaign finance laws, reduction in the freedom to associate with who you please, government mandated hiring practices, loose interpretation of the constitution, etc.. The hard part is that many of the things that lead down the path to an authoritarianism are done with the best of intentions. It does not change the fact that they should not be done.
Rick,
When has the government read your e-mails or thumbed through your library records? I want specific instances, please.
Chris, you’re a moron. You’re actually too stupid to be a fascist. That’s how low you’ve set the bar.
KH, I’m really getting tired of your “oh, this can’t be right cuz I’m a preppy Rethuglican bullshit”. Honestly man, take a friggin’ stand on something. Pick a road dude, and hit the throttle. Time is limited.
Chris - Rick can’t give you particulars because when the government reads emails and checks library records, a gag order is placed on the agency providing the record and they can be jailed if they notify a person they are being investigated. So not only can the government investigate anyone they deem suspicious, that person will never know about it, all thanks to the PATRIOT ACT (which legislators spent more time creating a title for so the acronym would fit than actually reading the document)
Max,
It’s the Patriot act and the actions of the administration you and Rick and Richard hate that has protected us from terrorism for the last six years. We’ve seen plot after plot disrupted because we’re not sitting on our hands and waiting for them to hit yet again.
Richard,
You know if you and Nitro think that name calling and trading insults is the way to win, you’re dead wrong. I think that Zack, Matt and Sean are a little embarassed that one of their most prolific posters thinks that there was a conspiracy in the White House to “let 9/11 happen.” I think the marijuana you smoked and the acid you dropped while you were protesting Nam has warped your little mind.
Richard,
You I have been civil and honest with you while taking a stand for what I believe in. You may not like it because is doesn’t fit your view but I stand and work for my views. Why you seem to have such a problem with independence and non-conformity makes me think you are you own type of “neo-fascist”, or maybe neo-communist if you prefer. You are afraid of government and business becoming too integrated but somehow think government controlling health care is a good idea. You are afraid of government using sex or race as a reason to treat people differently, unless you and your friends approve. You fear restrictions on free speech but would love to see the government regulate political discourse. You’ have adopted the hypocrisy of your party and made it your own while giving up on the chance for something better. Instead of countering what I say with specifics you make things up and fall back on parroting the party mantra to independents of “pick a side”. Which reminds me of another authoritarian idea you share with Bush. “Either you’re with us or your with the enemy”.
Chris, I don’t know, it’s SECRET. Consider the recent ruling by the Supremes stating that the ACLU did not have standing in the wiretap case because they couldn’t Prove they were secretly wiretapped. How do you know if someone is eavesdropping without a warrant, YOU DON’T.
That’s why the government is supposed to go to court to get a warrant.
Obviously the I in my post was meant as anyone in this country. you are so clever by half to lawyerly pick up that I can’t prove “I” was wire tapped etc, Touche.
PROVE that is was the Patriot Act that prevented terrorism, specifics instances please, not just cause Bush and Cheney say so.
Chris,
One thing I do know is I am on the TSA security list. I can’t check in over the web, have to do it in person, don’t know how or why I’m on it and I’ve applied to get off it, but I haven’t heard anything from TSA.
Perhaps it is my Irish, German, Norwegian ancestry, or it’s because I’m a Democrat, or a Labor union activist, or a pinko commie terrorist in my alter ego, who knows.