Emotions are running high after disaster of this magnitude and people have a variety of ways of responding to that emotion. On the one hand you have bloggers such as Mike McIntee [edited here, apologies to Mike for the prior inaccuracy] beginning to probe the Governor on his actions prior to bridge collapse and on the other you have partisans like Michael Brodkorb streaming a series of attacks on people like Mike McIntee for daring to politicize the tragedy. You have Nick Coleman writing an article laying out a case for Tim Pawlenty sharing the blame and you have Anti-Strib mindlessly and disgustingly saying that Congressman Ellison is “gleeful over this event” and will use it for personal gain.
Taking a step back from the partisan field, I think all of these are natural and warranted responses to the situation. Bridges like that don’t shouldn’t just crash for no reason, but it did. And because it did innocents died; in our own backyard. If that doesn’t get you riled up you don’t have a pulse. And for those of us who live and breath politics the natural vent for our anger, frustration and remorse is often political. So we blame the authority figure on hand, Tim Pawlenty, or we blame the Democrats who focused on transit instead of roads, or we just blame everyone who’s blaming someone. I can tell you this much though: with all that blame and emotion flying around things won’t get fixed, they’ll just get ugly.
Still, we cannot learn from this horrible event if we do not learn why it occurred. An investigation into the root causes of this tragedy is clearly needed and I have little doubt that it will occur. This investigation must take its due course and be buffered, to the extent possible, from the partisan trappings that many will seek to constrain it within. We want the truth and there are at least 6 families at this point who deserve it above all else. Pointing fingers and assigning blame prior to any significant revelations into the true causes of this incident amounts to little more than opinion-foisting at the expense of the public. As natural as a response as it may be, we need to restrain our emotion and look rationally for concrete evidence.
That, of course, will take time and even at its closing may not provide the concrete answers we’re all striving for. A lack of answers, however, should not preclude our desire to learn from what we do already know. But without those concrete answers at hand we delve back into the fog of opinion, no matter how educated that opinion may be. So, we must recognize that fog and continue forward; for to not do so would be more irresponsible than any other action. We must continue forward acknowledging the holes in our knowledge and resisting the temptation to devolve into the blame game, for that yields little but costs much.
I would ask of all Minnesotans to embrace the coming political discussion with open arms. The bridge is a function of government and its collapse was a function of the failure of government; therefore, the discussion is inherently and unavoidably a political one. But we must venture forth in a way that will be productive, not divisive, and insightful, not vengeful.
So, tread carefully when assigning blame. Acknowledge that a political discussion is warranted, but that a discussion necessitates the inclusion of all views. Attempt, as sincerely as you can, to reign in the emotion that obfuscates rationality and the rationality that ignores emotion. Only look to the past to build for the future; wallowing in our mistakes without reflecting on a new path is a self-indulgent exercise with no gain. And, above all, respect one another. Now is a time for us to pull together as Minnesotans. We must reflect on our past to ensure a better future, but anger towards each other will only delay us in our drive to build that future.
Thank you. Finally, a reasonable response. Good post.
Blaming one side or the other is useless. Lets research and solve the problem. Simple, easy, and quite Minnesotan.
Nicely put.
Thank you, Matt for the proper perspective. Partisans like DJZ and others pointing the finger of blame at Pawlenty should be careful until we find out why the bridge collapsed. Likewise, conservative activists who blamed the DFL should be cautioned. We do not know why the bridge collapsed nor do we know how, or even if, the deficiency ratings relate to the collapse. Until we know the answers, anyone who points the finger of blame or tries to play politics with the tragedy deserve to be haunted by those who tragically perished yesterday.
Well put, Matt.
Matt:
I don’t agree with everything you wrote, but you’re on the right track. I’ve linked to your post and I’ve encouraged my readers to visit.
Thanks guys. It took me a while to put this into writing, but I think it needed to be said.
Matt,
Thank you for such a well thought out and fair statement. I think we can also all be thankful for the amazing job done by our local first responders.
Of course NO ONE wants something like this to happen.
Its a tragedy & travesty.
To say that fortunately MORE did not die, ignores the tragedy it is for those who DID. It does not deserve politicization & that’s already under way…
Nice comment:
One thing it sounds like the governor is trying to let everyone know the facts and is trying to get the bridges (in order of possible most dangerous) inspected. Instead of people screaming names ask questions that might need to be answered. That’s what will be needed to try to stop this from happening again.
Walter Hanson
The first responders were/are truly amazing here. I spent many years at sea, and have been in many situations where response teams came in, and I was in fact trained in disaster operation procedures at sea, which are not too different from land. I can say without a doubt that they performed well beyond expectation.
Making it a bit political, I hope that when/if they find that this bridge has collapsed because of something that could have been easily prevented with some basic forethought and maybe some spending that was skipped, so that certain members of the population could retain tax cuts, we hold our people accountable, regardless of party alignment.
I just have one quibble with your post. You wrote, “Emotions are running high after such a magnanimous disaster […]”. Magnanimous means, “high-minded; noble; (Random House)”. I’m not sure what word you meant, but it probably wasn’t “magnanimous”.
Good post. We need to be respectful, civil, and honorable when discussing this issue right now.
May we learn from this awful tragedy that the infrastructure of our state needs constant care, which fuels the economy, which gives us the quality of life we all cherish.
The Bravery of all those involved in the saving of lives, going through the ruins to find the missing, all deserve our thanks.
John O’C, thanks for catching that. I had caught myself in an earlier draft and thought I revised it out. Guess I need to proof-read a few more times.
Allright, fine. We don’t need to literally blame Palwenty, but I think we can go ahead and blame the libertarian attitude that Pawlenty strives to represent. If, as Reagan famously said, “government is the problem,” then bridges are bound to fall down, and dikes are bound to burst.
I think its necessary to point a finger or two at a long legacy of privatization and tax cuts that’s been the hallmark of decades of anti-government leadership on both sides of the aisle.
Matt,
Great post and and agree with the sentiments.
One correction: Mike McIntee did NOT say Pawlenty had blood on his hands. That was left as a comment to his post.
You’re a sharp guy. Brodkorb’s tactics worked on you.
There are a lot of leaps of logic going on in the “Tim Pawlenty Killed 6 through Tax Pledge” argument.
1. It assumes that MnDOT did not do adequate maintenance. Maybe it did, maybe it didn’t. I don’t know.
2. It assumes that MnDOT did not do enough maintenance because it didn’t have enough money. Maybe yes. Maybe no. Bureaucracies, both public and private, can be dysfunctional.
3. It assumes that high tax collections would have resulted in money going to bridge maintenance and repair. But road and bridge work is but one portion of the total budget. You could just as easily say that money spent on libraries, on MnCare, on day care subsidies, etc. was the cause, since it could have been used on the bridge.
Finally, shit happens. Catastrophes occur. This may simply have been one of those situations.
wtm: “We need to be respectful, civil, and honorable when discussing this issue right now”.
I agree but question the time qualifier. Are you suggesting that the day will come when it will be appropriate to go back to being disrespectful, uncivil and dishonorable?
Today’s hypotheses and speculations about the blame for the bridge collapse are for some therapeutic while for others obscene. While tempting to scoff and blame it is far more productive to pray.
Well put Matt.
There’s families suffering right now, many who don’t even know what has happened to their loved ones. Our thoughts and prayers, our tears, are for the families, as they were on 9/11, as they were during Katrina, as they should be.
I see “Minnesota Nice” being portrayed for all of America to see. We have a lot of things to be proud of as Minnesotans, and at the top of the list today for me is being proud of the individual heroism of perfectly normal, everyday Minnesotans.
We are truly the stars of the North. Let’s keep moving forward, together.
Drew,
Frankly I wish we all could be respectable, civil, and honorable every day we engage in political discourse. (By the way, I am not singling out you because, having read many of your comments, I know you are an above-board player.) That’s why I loathe the use of ad hominem attacks and vulgar labels. That being stated, in the context of a tragedy, I believe it is especially important that we not treat this issue as any other pedestrian political issue because individuals have lost their lives. And, yes, prayer is most definitely the best route.
Tim: I feel pretty stupid about that now. I love Mike, I’ve had many interactions with him and every time I walk away impressed. I stand corrected.
The opportunity for a civil, respectful pause was dashed to the ground almost immediately by leftists bent on using this tragedy to milk the cow and whip the GOP.
http://restraininorder.blogspot.com/2007/08/fuck-injured-and-deadlets-get-to-gop.html
Fine…I’m your Huckleberry.
I wonder, now that this has happened, if we might see a few bucks coughed back up from the choo-choo train money hole?
I mean, if I’m not mistaken (and I’m not), the people of Minnesota just voted to force the (Democrat) legislature to spend tax money that was supposed to go to paying for roads (and bridges) upkeep to actually go to that purpose.
We had to *force* them, and some people thought they had…but
Of course, the left lied (sigh..a-gain) and siphoned the lions share of those crucial dollars off for “transit” (that means the choo-choo train).
And the left complains that they didn’t get a nice gas big tax increase to top that cake??
Yet, the voters, the people themselves have a share of the blame. The people who pilfer our roads and bridges fund would not have the chance if people did not continue to elect them.
Think about this the next time you listen to a candidate pander to the anti-car crowd.
Maybe, just maybe the next time a pack of liberals shows up to a House committee meeting demanding that the state spend infrastructure dollars on bike trails, or “green transit” studies that cost millions and inevitably conclude that cars are bad, or “traffic calming” ge-gaws or, well you get the picture; maybe someone will hold up a picture of the 35W bridge and the room will be cleared while our legislators do the right thing.
Matt,
Don’t feel stupid. Just be sure to read anything Michael writes very carefully. His tactics rely on most people not doing so.
The above post is telling of an attitude that is partly the problem. I welcome the debate mentioned above. I would argue we actually need a more well balanced approach to transportation. Cars are a huge part of our life, and they will remain so. But we need to lessen the load and dependence on only cars, and create more sustainable transportation systems for our cities. Yes, right-wingers: transit and bikes are part of this picture. Yes, urban radicals: cars will continue to receive majority attention.
The news headlines today were that no major back-ups occurred because of this event — considering that the 35W link was just destroyed. People find other ways to travel. Let’s start to build our cities around other ways to travel, instead of building huge, expensive, and hard to maintain infrastructure for one transportation mode - the car. Can we please make this part of the oncoming debate?
The time for debate on this issue will come down the road once we find out what really caused this catastrophe. It has been reported that there have been cracks in the structure since it was built in 1967. It has also been reported that the cracks have been repaired multiple times and that they were not expanding in any way during the last two inspections. It could be a design defect that caused the collapse or a materials defect. Until we know what happened, saying that funding would have or could have prevented this tragedy is premature at best.
Good lord Swiftee did not read what Matt just wrote? After at least 4 people died, this is not a time to be placing partisan blame on one side of the political spectrum or the other, there are more important things to be worried about in this situation.
In his press conference this morning GW Bush wasted no time in using this tragedy to try to blame democrats somehow for holding up his spending plans. I was appalled at that.
Bob,
To be fair, the President had a full press conference dealing with a number of issues. The bridge collapse was the most important issue, but he did not limit the presser to discussing the tragedy. He is correct that Congress has not passed a single spending bill and they are most certainly running out of time.
Chris, now who is being the partisan? Go to bed.
As far as Swiftee goes, he’s a true lost individual that has no use for tact or facts. Even on MDE he is mostly ignored and I advise us to do the same here. You cannot appeal to one who lacks compassion and logic yet, strangely admires his cousin.
in other words, he’s a hillbilly asshole.
Bush’s transcript from yesterday morning here. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/08/20070802-2.html
I am absolutely appalled by the statements that have been posted on Democratic Underground, it is amazing that those people can sleep at night hoping this ruin’s Norm’s re-election chances. I can say with distinct certainty that the thought that he is running for re-election next year has not crossed his mind since Wednesday afternoon. Al he wants, along with Sen. Klobuchar, Governor Pawlenty, Cong. Ellison, Mayor Rybak and many more is to clean up and start healing.
djz,
Don’t lecture me about being partisan. If the people on this site read the b.s. you’ve posted on MDE, they would probably be sick.
It is unfortunate that before all the bodies are recovered - its being politicized.
***
Tim from Woodbury was instructive in his post:
One correction: Mike McIntee did NOT say Pawlenty had blood on his hands. That was left as a comment to his post.
***
THAT was a messy bit - if McIntee was being accused of a comment he did not make! - in order to paint him partisan!
Ineptness or partisan calculation in falsely blaming McIntee for a comment someone else made?
What I find objectionable - was Bush’s press conference.
Why was it thrust out there - and then rolled into a chastisement of congress? The tragedy is not a line item.
The scale of the damage does not compare to New Orleans.
But did he tack every little policy comment onto his photo op in Jackson Square?
Chris,
MDE has established itself as the site where hyper-partisanship and gutter-sniping is the norm.
Only when the Democrats (ie me) fight back with fire are you all ‘shocked’ at our lack of manners while your brethren kicks us in the yahoos.
MN Publius has set the bar higher, and I’m showing respect.
Very well written and interesting post.
I am an outsider (as I live in New York) and was simply shocked and touched by the tragedy that struck you in Minneapolis. As anyone, probably because I can identify with some of the stories that are necessarily told by media. The blame game is a natural immediate reaction and part of a cycle that can be seen in dealing with bereavement. The cycle has to move forward towards transformation, this is certainly what all want out of a tragedy, that things change for a better future.
My thoughts and prayers go to all affected. May everyone see a speedy and complete recovery.
Mockingbird,
The President’s press conference was not just about the bridge collapse. He covered several topics, including Congress and spending. Congress has not passed a single spending bill and the fiscal year ends September 30 - with Congress out until after Labor Day.
DJZ,
It’s fine to fight back with fire, but please be accurate. You challenged people to come up with any spending that the DFL voted down on highways and bridges. I came up with over $1.7 billion that got canned by the Senate Transportation Committee last session. You didn’t respond.
By the way, unlike some of the other comments made, I am not saying that the DFL is responsible for the bridge collapse.
Chris,
The total cost of Bush’s tax cuts for the rich will be an estimated $2.35 trillion national debt interest by 2010.
http://www.ctj.org/pdf/gwbdata.pdf
The cost of the Iraq war is approaching 450 billion dollars, although I have seen higher estimates.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11880954/
Those are our Country’s spending priotities. I find it all very troubling. Thanks, righties, for all you have done.
Nitro,
The 2007 budget for the United States was $2.902 trillion. The proposed budget for FY 2008 is $2.985 trillion. Over 60% of the federal budget is spent on entitlement programs. That is where our spending priorities are. http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2008/summarytables.html
It is very sad, hearing the term “entitlement programs”, being used to describe that spending. This term suggests the recipients may think they are “entitled” to them, and is a talking point that is casually used by the right way too often.
Just what “entitlement programs” do you want removed from that list, Chris? What do you think is a waste?
I think millionaires don’t need tax cuts, and the war in Iraq was a mistake.
Nitro,
I did not say any entitlement programs should be removed. I only wanted to show where our real spending priorities in Washington, D.C. are and how much we actually spend each and every year - some $3 trillion.
P.S. Nitro,
I do my parents taxes every year. They have a combined income of about $75,000. Under President Bush’s tax cuts, they have saved about $2300 a year. If the Democrats repeal his tax cuts, they will have to pay that $2300 back in.
Chris Aug 3rd, 2007 at 10:52 am
The press conference was not just about the bridge collapse. He covered several topics, including Congress and spending. Congress has not passed a single spending bill and the fiscal year ends September 30 - with Congress out until after Labor Day.
**********
How about a nice little interval in there?
It was barely a breath in between. You know as well as I, that there was some gamesmanship going on.
This administration always has something else going on. There is always another motive, some ploy. Probably can’t count on one hand what they’ve done that didn’t have a political gain for them.
Chris - You bring up another thought: are you including the war debt in your National budget figure?
It boggles the mind that the war is not normally included in the budget.
We are years into this war & are told this is a generational war.
Then the war cost is not a blip & should be factored into the annual budget.
Mockingbird,
I’d like to know what the war has to do with the bridge collapsing in Minneapolis? The answer is absolutely nothing. If you’re complaining about the cost of the war, it is less than 5% of the budget.
Chris - you are right. It had to happen.
The war & the bridge are only connected by the budgetary concerns - and what your parent’s income is.
It is a non sequitor to the topic.
Oooops.
I guess then, Bush’s chastising congress in a partisan attack practically tied to the bridge tragedy is likewise a non sequitor!
Chris,
I think it’s great that your middle class parents have saved money. They probably need it to keep up with the rising cost of living in America.
By concern is those who are wealthy beyond any middle class dream who get very very large tax breaks, thanks to being Americans, and are not willing to give them up AND, in fact, want more and more and more tax cuts? Where does it end? Are they still going to want more 5, 10, or 20 years from now? When do we reach the point where we all say, ENOUGH!!
For example look at this tax loophole that benefits a very small amount of very wealthy people.
“The second thing wrong with this exemption is that these super rich fund managers do not need and certainly do not deserve special tax breaks. Alpha Magazine reports the compensation for hedge fund managers each year. The top earner for 2006 received $1.7 billion, the second highest received $1.4 billion, and the third $1.3 billion. That adds to $4.4 billion for three people. The top 25 hedge managers received, on average, $570 million for a total of $14.25 billion.”
http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/pm120
Is this really the right time for these kind of tax breaks?
Choking the Governments budgets while at the same time claiming government is ineffective is a very obvious self serving circular logic driven ideology that is only serving the interests of the few.
Mockingbird,
Doesn’t the President have the right to talk about more than one topic in a Rose Garden press conference? Some of you guys have expressed concern about Congress not spending any money. You should be happy that the President yelled at Congress for not passing any spending bills. The fiscal year ends September 30 and spending bills are required before the end of the fiscal year.
Nitro,
I don’t want to stray too far from the topic. I mentioned the numbers I cited because they put a hole through the notion that we don’t spend any money in this country that isn’t tied to the war.
Also, with respect to the tax cuts, it’s not your money. It’s pretty greedy for politicians (or their supporters for that matter) to say somebody else has “too much” and that government should take it away. The only difference between that and bank robbery is bank robbery is illegal.
Anyway, I don’t want to get too far off the topic here. We should support those who are injured or in mourning as well as those in recovery operations. We should also leave politics aside until the bodies are out of the water and we have some kind of idea why the bridge collapsed.
I’m sure that we can all talk about how the version of government we supported before the bridge collapse was not to blame for what happened. Each of us could propose a scenario where if money had been shifted from one thing to another the tragedy would not have occurred.
Unfortunately everyone would rather have new lanes, new trains, bigger intersections, bike trails, new stadiums, more teachers, space program improvements, etc. rather than take care of the basics. No matter what we think the tax rate should be or what programs are important there is a limit to how much we can spend. Whatever that limit is we cannot ignore the fundamentals just to be distracted by flashier more appealing subjects. A new roof on your house doesn’t improve your quality of life instantly like a new washing machine or television but it keeps what you have from being destroyed.
Politicians don’t get elected because they fixed a bridge, made the tax code more transparent or protected a fundamental constitutional right from eroding away just a little bit more. They get elected by bringing money to their districts for big flashy projects or promising increases in services or cutting taxes. We, the voters that support them despite this are really the ones to blame here.
As a native of New York (New York City, actually), I’m impresse by the reaction to the bridge collapse. Sure, there are those who jump on things like this with their lungs going at full blast and their fingers pointing at….whatever they hate this week. What impresses me is how many are trying very hard not to prejudge, and not to let their political ideoloogy get in the way of clear thinking. People are taking the time to grive for those lost, praise the first responders (who unquestionably deserve all the praise they get)and think about deeper issues like infrastructure investment.
If - for example - Brooklyn Tunnel were to cave in, or the Mid-Manhattan Bridge to collapse - in Manhattan, the reaction wuld be, I think far different. By any measure, those who immediately assigned blame would be higher, the passions would run higher, and the level of civil discourse would be lower. This is a sad time for Minnesota, but a time we will be able to remember without shame.
Chris Aug 3rd, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Mockingbird,
Doesn’t BUSH have the right to talk about more than one topic in a Rose Garden press conference?
______
Non Sequitor conflations a day later? Couldn;t find a more appropriately compassionate moment to speak about the tragedy?
______
Speaking of “appropriate” then, when is the “appropriate interval” over & we can bald-faced talk about what may have gone wrong?
Its brutal what happened. It is important to have a muted moment for the people who died & those who are injured.
But we can’t go on forever just being solemn.
Could wait until it is “out-of-sight, out-of-mind.”
Won’t work in this case though.
Kerosene - good post.
Yes, there are many actors in this - and we vote for self-proclaimed superstars not accountants nor maintenance men that keep the machinery running smoothly.
(Arne Carlson may be the exception to that rule).
However, this bridge did have issues since ‘91.
There was some concern when thy installed de-icing.
Its perhaps not appropriate for Bush to conflate the mention of this tragedy with a chastisement of the congress - trying to bully them with barely a breath in between topics. Its a matter of appropriateness.
Speaking of appropriateness - the “appropriate interval” should not become an opportunity to allow this to totally defuse or get foced from our consciousness. There is a time to discuss it. The moment of silence out of deference for those lost cannot go on forever. Else they died - for what? Out of sight, out of mind?
At some point, we need to see IF there is someone culpable, or more likely find one of those process breakdowns. Someone is still in charge of process. Doesn’t make them entirely personally culpable, but its too early to ascertain whether there is NO issue.
Certainly as pointed out, cavalier attitudes about what the role of government is - needs to be examined.
Inspections are not there just to get Inspectors out of the office & into the sunshine. Their ratings & reports serve for someone to judge when a thing needs to get replaced, when repair is dire - so I do have a small problem with “nobody told us the bridge would collapse.”
I caught tidbits of Bush’s press conference as he blamed Democrats in Congress for rfailing to give him Bills tha he could sign. Congrewss is giving Bush Bills that he should sign, but has vetoed because they were NOT the BILLS that he particularly wanted. Congress is giving Bush what he needs more than what he wants. Big difference here.
I also read that TPaw is reconsidering his “No New Taxes” pledge anad will ev entually sign a Gas Tax increase Bill. Bout friggin’ time! He should not have vetoed the BiPArtisan Transportation Bill in 2005 and this year. Not that that would have prevented what happened.
Of course the GOP will spin this as the Gov. coming to his senses finally after this tragic revelation. Let this state move forward, raise the monies to see that the infrastructure of Minnesota is the best it can be. This state’s economy depends on it. Any delays will end up costing many minnesotans more times over if left undone.
Accountability or Politicize
When the 9/11 disaster happened, it was used to get us into two wars and remove many civil liberties. That was OK by Republicans. Now when disasters happen because Republican led government has either not invested money or funneled money into corrupt non-performing businesses, now the scream, don’t politicize.
No, its accountability! Say it often!
GK,
Please be rational. How about all the politicos of both varieties who have chosen to spend the available resources in other ways? The spending on mass transit has not helped maintain the basic infrastructure nor has the increased bandwidth people promise with increased lanes or new highways.
Both sides have a history of hiding the true costs of what they promise. Shifting costs between one function and another fools people into thinking new higher profile government functions have no cost by deferring the expense of promises already made. If we were to fully fund all of the promises from road maintenance to Medicare to Social Security without running a debt our tax rate would be far beyond the level even the most left leaning Democrat would be comfortable with.
We as a nation tend to be spoiled and want everything for nothing and both political parties pander to this nature in all of us. It is true the Democrats tend to talk about raising taxes but they also tend to propose even greater expansions in spending. This method is no better in maintaining the basics than is the Republican method of cutting taxes and cutting services.
What we need is transparency in funding and spending. We should never expand services, roads included, without having first passed dedicated funding sources to maintain that service. If we do not we are asking our elected officials to play a shell game with funds that encourages taking money from things few of us will notice in order to give it to projects that are high profile and will help them during the next election cycle.
How about with roads in Minnesota we increase the gas tax 5-10 cents and dedicate all monies collected from that as well as license, wheelage fees and automotive sales taxes to repair and maintenance. We freeze all transit and road expansion projects until we have caught up with maintenance. Once we have accomplished that we can once again have the debate on how to balance expanding transit (of all modes) with the costs involved. This would encourage everybody to work together so they could once again have the chance to expand light-rail, bike paths or freeways. I think a 2-3 year delay would be worth it in order to have all of our current systems as safe as they should be.
kathy,
You kind of hit the nail on the head when you talked about investing infrastructure. Pawlenty has invested in infrastructure, as we’ve discussed before. He proposed $1.7 billion in highway/bridge construction last session and it went nowhere. And you’re right, that would not have had anything to do with the bridge collapsing. Noah Kunin was on Hannity and Colmes last night talking about how the road construction on that bridge shook his building all the time and was so loud he couldn’t hear himself speak. Could that have something to do with a bridge collapsing? We’ll see.
As for President Bush, it’s a little bit sad when the DFL has been blaming Iraq for the bridge collapse (see the Daily Kos). That said, he was right to call on Congress to pass their spending bills. Kathy, Democrats control both Houses of Congress. And in the Senate, spending bills cannot be filibustered. So why aren’t Democrats passing their bills to get to the President’s desk? Even lifelong Democrat commentators, like Mort Kondrake, are saying it’s been a do-nothing Congress. All you seem to care about is pulling out of Iraq and yet that has nothing to do with the 99.9% of things Congress must get done. By the way, Bush’s approval rating on Iraq is 24% while Congress’ approval rating on Iraq is 3%.
Grace Kelly,
Are you some kind of psychic that knows why the bridge collapsed or are you just another Nick Coleman trying to spin the disaster for partisan gain? Please take Matt’s warning to let things play out before pointing the finger. The bodies are still under water.
Kerosene Hat,
I agree with the substance of what you said, especially the part about taking care of highways before transit. I disagree with you when you said we have to stop expanding highways. You don’t understand that expanding highways improves infrastructure because it means taking out old sections and putting in new sections. We can’t just tear up what we have now and do it over — that won’t solve anything. And actually we need to find out what made the bridge collapse before we proceed anyway. The reasons for the collapse could make these other issues moot.
“Grace Kelly” vomited: “Now when disasters happen because Republican led government has either not invested money or funneled money into corrupt non-performing businesses, now the scream, don’t politicize.”
Lady, you have more balls than most male lefties.
Where have the millions, and millions, and millions of dollars that WE the taxpayers pitch in to maintain our infrastructure gone?
Where did the money that wew thought that we had secured for roads through a Constitutional amendment??
To fund sssinine left wing delusions like the choo-choo train. And to buy more police to try to maintain the chaos that occurrs on public transit busses every day.
Oh yeah, please give us more of that!!
And you want to talk about the king of all corrupt, non-performing “businesses”…let’s talk about Public Schools, Inc.
Billions of dollars tossed down a rat hole each year, each year test scores get worse, each year thousands of kids hit the streets functionally illiterate.
Whatever the cause, the collapse of the bridge put an end to seven lives. The left is responsible for sentencing thousands to the slow death of a life of abject poverty because they would rather stuff their pockets and the pockets of their political allies than provide the education that we paid them to provide.
Fuck you and your ignorance lady. It’s time for the rational, mainstream populace to take control from extreme left wing that is bent on destroying this country from the inside out.
The strategy as the Republican Party moves forward, injured and dying, is to block every bit of legislation they can of the Democrats, as they point their fingers at them and blame Democrats for being inneffective.
Bush’s base will, again, unquestionably repeat the talking points they are spoon fed like the developing infants that they are. Moving forwards, their fingers are all crossed that this will work. Who cares what those moonbat “majority of Americans” think, right?
There is no hope that together America will move forward. The people don’t matter to the talking point repeaters. All that matters to them is winning at any cost, including the best interests of our great country.
You recent right wing posters disgust me, your insistance that there be no finger pointing in the name of victims as you try to score political points for your dying, pathetic political party. Shame on you people. You deserve my post.
How dare you poison this post with your utterly ignorant right wing partisan filth. You have been losers, are losers, will be losers in the future, because you don’t know any better.
If ever there was an event that will light the fire under the feet of Minnesotans against your (embarrassing to Minnesota) political positions, this bridge collapse is it. My advice to you is….
Keep saying things like “Fuck you and your ignorance lady.” Come back here and do it again and again. Keep stoking those fires, and don’t stop until Fall 2008. Keep representing yourselves so well.
Where do I send that check?
Chris,
Just to clarify. I don’t mean to say that we wouldn’t complete projects like the crosstown project just getting started or the unweave the weave project on 694. I consider those projects maintaining the current system and making it safer. Just that we should not be spending resources on increasing capacity through roads or rail or anything else until we have a handle on taking care of what we have. Then as we can agree on a method to fund additional capacity we can do so.
On another note.
A good friend of mine who works for WisDOT called me up within half an hour of the collapse to make sure my wife and I were alright being we live within 4 miles of the bridge. Being an engineer working on transit it was interesting to hear his initial reaction. The first thing he thought of as a cause was simply the fact it was a design type that should never have been used. It was considered high risk even when new (high risk means something different to transportation engineers than it does to most people). He said the addition of lanes after it opened, the de-icing system added a few years ago, the normal wear and the construction going on at the time could very well had a cumulative affect. Even the fact that all the open lanes had been on the west side of the bridge may have added to the cause. His best guess is that it is the multiplication of these different small factors, the de-icing system being the most concerning, that will be found to be the culprit. Also that there is a problem with the term “structurally deficient”. That term is used in part to make a bridge capable of getting federal funds to fix or replace it. Of course local officials all want federal funds for a new bridge so they have made the term overly broad so that there are now so many bridges in the category it is almost meaningless.
That being said he also mentioned that if safety were really a concern for anybody they would save more lives with fewer dollars by making motorcycles illegal or putting concrete barriers up on all highways than by replacing bridges but that wouldn’t get anybody on television. The 35W bridge collapse was dramatic and has garnered a lot of attention but we should be careful as politicians and their supporters, like moths to a flame, use the spotlight to promote themselves and their agendas.
Nitro,
Name one piece of legislation that is being blocked by Republicans. You can’t. It’s sad that you’re back to name calling and vitriol again and the bodies aren’t even out of the water yet. Nitro, YOU DON’T KNOW WHY THE BRIDGE COLLAPSED!!!
Nitro = permanent ignore.
Kerosine hat makes a couple of good points, and a few stupid ones.
“The strategy as the Republican Party moves forward, injured and dying, is to block every bit of legislation they can of the Democrats, as they point their fingers at them and blame Democrats for being inneffective.”
I’ve never complained about inneffective Democrats, they are my favorite kind.
“Who cares what those moonbat “majority of Americans” think, right?”
You’re mixing your argument with mine. I don’t think that people who have reservations about the President’s leadership vis-a-vis Iraq are moonbats…because I’m one of them. I said so on my blog in 2004.
But that has nothing to do with the day to day bufoonery that the left foists upon us. It has nothing to do with the fact that there isn’t enough cash on the planet to satiate the left’s appetite for waste and keep the country moving at the same time.
“There is no hope that together America will move forward.”
Amen brother.
This country is firmly divided 50\50 and speaking for myself, I have no intention of “moving forward” with people who wish to gut this country of every last vestige of what makes us great.
It’s a fight to the death.
“You recent right wing posters disgust me, your insistance that there be no finger pointing in the name of victims as you try to score political points for your dying, pathetic political party. Shame on you people. You deserve my post.”
You’re right, it was silly to expect the same people who staged a big asshat dance on the coffin of their anointed saint, a man who had barely reached room temperature, to show restraint. It’s on.
“How dare you poison this post with your utterly ignorant right wing partisan filth. You have been losers, are losers, will be losers in the future, because you don’t know any better.”
As I said, Kerosene hat made some stupid remarks..this would be one of them. I guess the proper response to such a pissy little tantrum might be “I know you are, but what am I”..but I will refrain.
“If ever there was an event that will light the fire under the feet of Minnesotans against your (embarrassing to Minnesota) political positions, this bridge collapse is it. My advice to you is….
Keep saying things like “Fuck you and your ignorance lady.” Come back here and do it again and again. Keep stoking those fires, and don’t stop until Fall 2008. Keep representing yourselves so well.”
Blah, blah blah. Nothing I do, or say here will light any fires that haven’t been lit for years. I don’t expect to win any converts here hat man, I’m here to put the idiocy of the statements of people like “Grace Kelly” right back in your drooling faces.
I said “fuck you and your ignorance” because a) a hearty “fuck you” was warranted and b) the woman is ignorant. QED
Wow. Remember, the name calling started with a rightie, Chris, and again, I am all over that. I tried to keep it civil. Just look at the timeline of posts.
Chris, just look up “Republican Filibuster” on google news….sheesh!
Thanks righties for proving my points. Your unconsciously spewed circular logic is an inspiration to everyone here.
“I said “fuck you and your ignorance” because a) a hearty “fuck you” was warranted and b) the woman is ignorant. QED”
And what should my reply to that sickening comment be?
I could easily point by point rebut your posts, but I’m just glad I made you waste your time replying to me and make fools out of yourselves at the same time. In addition, Swiftee, in your blind rage, you think I’m Kerosene Hat. I think Kerosene might have a thing or two to say about that, pally. I certainly do not even remotely represent his positions.
Where do I send the check?
“And what should my reply to that sickening comment be?”
I didn’t request a response from you asswipe, so as far as I’m concerned you can STFU.
“In addition, Swiftee, in your blind rage, you think I’m Kerosene Hat.”
WTF?? No confusion here sport; I can smell the difference from here.
Nitro,
I know you did try to keep it civil and that’s why I responded to you. I actually didn’t disagree with a lot of what you had to say. And I didn’t read the comments you reacted to. I don’t read everything that everyone posts, in part, because I don’t take some people seriously.
Let me get to the substance of what you said about filibusters. Spending bills CANNOT be filibustered. Only policy bills and nominations require cloture votes. The only thing Republicans have asked for cloture votes on, to my knowledge, is the pullout of Iraq. Iraq has nothing to do with the bridge collapsing. And again, we don’t know why the bridge collapsed. Until we do, finger pointing and blaming is not only futile but destructive.
Chris,
I can easily be civil. It’s the casual name calling by the righties that I find offensive, and I will always go off on people who do that. I’m not going to just sit back and take it anymore.
Keep that in mind in the future. As far as swiftee goes, he seems to relish that fact that he does that, and thinks it is some noble cause of his. He represents a typical troll very well.
In the future I will not put you in the same category as Swiftee. My apologies, for last night’s post about you only.
I am correct, however, about the Republican strategy moving forward. The party’s only hope is to be able to smear the left, and right now that means doing everything in their power to make the Democrats as ineffective as possible. This plan includes the Bush, of course, vetoing anything he deems “unacceptable”. Their behavior over the last few months proves that. Bush’s speeches over the last few weeks, in coordination with the right wing radio hosts and tv pundits, have that theme, and nothing they do is unplanned. Unfortunately for that plan the collapse has sidetracked the agenda this week, however Bush’s speech on Thursday showed how important that smear campaign is to Bush, he had to fit in that particular propaganda. What do you think he was discussing with his meeting with “conservative talkers” this week? They came right out of that meeting continuing that very smear.
That’s why, for the moment, I don’t see any hope in the near future for our country to heal. That is the last thing on the RNC’s mind. I think if some effort by the right wing to reach out to the left would have some suprising results, but that’s not what the last 6 years have been about.
The war on Christmas, the smears on KOS, trying to paint the Left as having some sinister connection to George Soros, Hillary has boobies, Edwards got a $400 haircut, Nancy Pelosi’s plane, Barak and Hillary “at war”, all these and much much more are completely and utterly laughable, yet there they are, part of our so-called political conversation. Until we remove that bullshit from the news and talk about issues, (like to your credit, Chris, you also do sometimes), our Country isn’t going to move forward.
The “shining light on a hilltop” doesn’t treat it’s own that way, because there are millions and millions of us proud Americans who are Liberals. We love our country. We have been tracking and listening the last 6 years to every unfair jab, every insult, every stupid talking point. We are parents too, you know, trying to raise a family and send our kids off to school.
People like Hannity, or O’Reilly, for example, don’t care. People like Micheal Brodkorb here in Minnesota don’t care. How are these people even credible anymore, they’ve helped propel our Country head first into mistake after mistake after mistake.
You say “finger pointing and blaming is not only futile but destructive”. Have you ever watched “The Factor”. That’s all he does, and he’s the most popular guy on cable news. That’s utterly outrageous! He can’t open his mouth without some sort of insult to the left.
The Whitehouse belongs to all the people, not just the right. At the end of it all, Bush, or any President, should be trying to represent us all once that election is over. (Yes that is an critique of Bill CLinton, too.) Bush doesn’t see it that way, and has turned the entire Whitehouse along with every office, including the “justice” department, into an arm of the RNC.
The American people have had enough. That’s why you will see an outcry about that bridge, no matter what the cause. We’re tired of it all. The bridge represents a bigger picture than just the human tragedy on the ground, it will represent a political tragedy in America. Every person drives over bridges, and many will wish we didn’t spend so much money in Iraq, or on tax cuts for millionaires.
It’s up to the Whitehouse to do something about the two Americas, rather than smear Democrats at every occasion. It could happen now, or happen later, but someday, some man of courage will step up and do just that. I would support any Presidential candidate that does, regardless of party.
Nitro,
I respect your desire for more civility in politics. I agree there needs to be more decency and civility in how we treat one another when discussing politics, if for no other reason than the maintenance of a healthy Republic, which, I believe, we all take for granted way too much.
That being stated, you point to talk radio and Fox News as examples on the Right of those who have coarsened the discourse. I disagree with that and can easily point to Daily Kos, Al Franken, and the obnoxious, offensive bumper stickers (“Bush lied, millions died,” “Re-defeat Bush,” a picture of the President next to “WTF?) I see every day while driving as examples of the coarsening of the discourse by the Left.
Even if the Republicans have a strategy of obstructionism (which, by the way, I don’t believe they do), they learned that strategy from the Democrats when they were in the minority in the Senate. So, in fairness, what comes around goes around.
Regardless, I believe this President has been given way too much blame for events beyond his control (see Katrina) and too little credit for those under his control (see War on Terror). Were mistakes made, especially in a time of war? Sure. Do I wish things had gone better in Iraq? You betcha. Do I hope things will go better in Iraq? Absolutely. But, what administration doesn’t make mistakes during war?
I am very curious to see how the next Presidential regime, especially if it is Democrat, fairs with the consequential issues of our time because I don’t believe it is as simple, clear, or cut-and-dried as those on the Left believe it to be with their incessant vilification and criticism of every action by this administration. Maybe things will get better, maybe they won’t. The proof will be in the pudding. But, if the proof isn’t there, look out.
Thank you, wtm, for civil discourse.
Accountability for money is what I’m talking about, concerning Bush. I just don’t see it.
It is implausable to me, mind boggling, that the party of Conservatism plunges our country further and further into debt as it shells out tax breaks for millionaires. That’s not what I expected from you people. Simply getting less in debt than the White House estimates doesn’t cut it. It’s still going up every year.
“each citizen’s share of this debt is $29,572.61”
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
If I ran my house like the Whitehouse does I’d be evicted. If I ran a business like the Whitehouse is run I’d be bankrupt. The Whitehouse acts like a criminal that knows he will not lose his job or business because he is above the law.
What sort of example are they setting for my children? Americans do have negative savings for the first time since the 1930’s.
Where could the money to fix that come from?
Millionaires are stinking rich off taxpayer dollars in the Iraq war and Katrina, and that concerns me. That’s tax overhead that is unnecessary. Missing millions here, billions there, have all been ignored by the right. The money could have been better spent, instead of putting it down a black hole.
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/01/30/iraq.audit/
What else could have “nearly 9 billion dollars” been spent on? Does anyone on the right care? It is criminal!
Issues like that are not going away, so either ignore it or deal with it. It has been ignored by the White House. This behavior has consequences, and some in the right wing blogosphere act as if there are no consequences.
Your statement that “they learned that strategy from the Democrats when they were in the minority in the Senate”. Your comment suggests there have been 200 years of congress with no obstructionism, and that makes that statement misleading.
As a conservative first, I for one will not defend a lack of fiscal responsibility. I have been disappointed the Republicans did not act more fiscally responsible — from the spending side of the ledger — when they were in control. I was pleased with their performance on the revenue side, with the tax cuts. As has been proven time again by JFK, Reagan, and now W, tax cuts stimulate the economy and increase revenue.
I agree with you that negative net savings among families portends negative economic consequences in the future, but the cause of the negative net savings is not Bush (or Clinton, for that matter). Rather it’s due to a generational flaw — the post-Depression and WWII generations have, to a great extent, never experienced want and thus have never felt compelled to save more than they spend because of their desire for instant gratification.
Deficit spending is only symptomatic of the larger problem, which is the unwillingness by elected officials to address entitlement spending in a truthful manner. If government does nothing to reform entitlement spending, the demographic shift that is about to occur when the boomers retire is going to either require more deficit spending, increased revenue, or both. I wish the President had pushed harder for reform of Social Security because that would have been a good first step to ensuring fiscal solvency. But, alas, he didn’t because no one has the political will to face this issue. At some point in the near future, we will face this issue or suffer the economic consequences.
I don’t disagree that obstructionism as a tactic has been around for many years. But I find it curious the Democrats are making the same argument Republicans made one year earlier about the same tactic.
wtm,
Yes it is curious that Republicans who condemned Democrats for being obstructionist one year ago and now are doing the same thing.
“Entitlement” is a misleading term that suggests that the people receiving the benefits think they are entitled to it. I find your use of that term disturbing. For example my parapalegic friend Drew wants to live. If he couldn’t work, he would die unless someone helped him. He has found, recently, doors being closed and he’s being billed an outrageous amount of money for benefits he received in the past, because policies have changed. Does he think he’s entitled? I would answer no, he just wants to live his life. He needs catheders every single day, and now he’s only eligible for 4 per month. Whats he supposed to do, hold it? We’re the richest country in the world, why can’t we take care of our own?
As far as SS goes, remember, when Reagan started these tax cutting measures, the immediate effect was a very large deficit, so he and Greenspan decided to borrow money from Social Security. Every President since has done that, that’s why Social Security is doomed. We’ve never paid the piper on that one.
Also remember, we spend as a Nation more on military spending than every other Country in the world combined. There’s a bigger problem with that, because all that spending wasn’t spent wisely and Defense industry CEO’s have become millionaires off our tax dollars. There’s a lot of corruption there that hasn’t even begun to be dealt with.
It would be interesting to see the total savings of better use of “entitlement spending”, as you call it, vs. better use of tax money in the Defense and Medicare industry.
Look at the numbers, and remember the Medicaid bill was written by Republicans and big pharma and has no competitive bidding. Republicans have been Defending that bill, so they own it.
The President’s budget for 2007 totals $2.8 trillion. Percentages in parentheses indicate percentage change compared to 2006. This budget request is broken down by the following expenditures:
* $699 billion ( 4.0%) - Defense
* $586.1 billion ( 7.0%) - Social Security
* $394.5 billion ( 12.4%) - Medicare
* $367.0 billion ( 2.0%) - Unemployment and welfare
* $276.4 billion ( 2.9%) - Medicaid and other health related
* $243.7 billion ( 13.4%) - Interest on debt
* $89.9 billion ( 1.3%) - Education and training
* $76.9 billion ( 8.1%) - Transportation
* $72.6 billion ( 5.8%) - Veterans’ benefits
* $43.5 billion ( 9.2%) - Administration of justice
* $33.1 billion ( 5.7%) - Natural resources and environment
* $32.5 billion ( 15.4%) - Foreign affairs
* $27.0 billion ( 3.7%) - Agriculture
* $26.8 billion ( 28.7%) - Community and regional development
* $25.0 billion ( 4.0%) - Science and technology
* $20.1 billion ( 11.4%) - General government
* $1.1 billion ( 47.6%) - Energy
Of note is that Iraq war spending is not included in the Federal Budget. Also notice interest on the National debt is sixth on the list, and has risen by 13% in one year.
I would love to see Democrats and Republicans hash these things out, but judging by President Bush’s actions (he is the Leader), this will never happen. He promotes smearing one side and defending the other, ignoring the ills of one side, and exagerrating the ills of the other. I find that behavior counterproductive and foolish, considering his position of power.
No one on the right - the extreme right, that is - seems to care one whit WHERE Bush’s approval rating is - so its hardly genuine to talk about congressional approval ratings.
Last I remember its pretty close to an even split between Dems & Republicans in congress, so spinning it as though it is DEMS that rate that approval rating is pretty dicey.
We’ve seen stupid grandstanding, Wars on Christmas & all kinds of stupid things from the right & taken up as banners by some Republicans in congress.
Its still about getting things done & getting enough votes & not getting a thing turned back by the white house, or them all getting scared because the dictator won’t work with anyone.
Nitro,
I appreciate the tone of your recent posts. I disagree with you a little bit about what you say regarding conservative commentators and shows like the O’Reilly Factor. O’Reilly did a great segment with Sen. Dodd the other day calling out some of the pretty ridiculous and outright hateful things written on Kos.
At any rate, I wanted to mention that your numbers from the President’s budget are a little off. Here is a link to the actual budget from the White House:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2008/summarytables.html
Defense spending is actually at $429 billion for FY 2007. You may be factoring in other figures, including Homeland Security spending which is separate and actually goes to a whole host of agencies.
Mockingbird,
I’m sorry but I have to disagree with you. Congress is controlled by Democrats. When people talk about Congressional approval, they rate the party that controls Congress. Even long time Democrats like Mort Kondracke and Juan Willams have blasted Congressional Democrats for not getting anything done. They control the committees and the legislative calendar. They control the spending because Spending bills only need 51 votes to pass the Senate (there is no cloture on spending bills). You can’t blame President Bush for Congressional inaction. So far, the President has only vetoed TWO bills: one on stem cells and the other mandating troop withdrawal in Iraq.
wtm - discourse is important.
But you have not looked hard & fast enough in some of your accusations. Some more careful investigation might be required - else you are merely engaging in wishful thinking.
Yes, things are harder to get done than we all want to believe.
You seriously need to look at Fox News Channel & start comparing what GETS said vs what is true. The local Fox affiliate is quite different than the machinery that puts Hannity & O’LIELEE on: THAT is the animal of which people speak. And the misinformation & demonizing in the face of facts.
Coarsening by the left — - whoa. In some districts during the 2004 elections - there was some pretty vicious behavior going on. So far, its just been pulling even with the behavior that SOME on the right have exhibited.
People on the left have long been reasonable, or fairly muted.
It doesn’t get things fixed, to believe that it is suddenly the left who is functioning overtly.
Dailykos is a network of people who all can speak their own minds - not a machine that pretends to be something different - news in the same sense as Fox CLAIMS to be, despite being largely a propaganda arm. Take a look who Bush has met with - right wing talkers several times now - to sell his message, but you don’t see any such happening to the “other side.”
Yep - that’s doing what he claimed he was gonna do, all right!
That’s really a tired old canard to say that blogs - which anyone can have that wants to blather on, is in any way a thing which balances Rupert Murdoch sewing up outlets.
IF you are going to compare that - then you need to look at hate speech on the Freeper site (Very right wing) & the threats on O’LIELEE’s pay forum which has posters making blatant death threats.
Bunper stickers are simply a case of free speech. There are many that are offensive & personally the “WTF” is hardly ofensive. There are nonpolitical ones, like “1-800_EAT-SHYTE” & many others that are worse than the sanitizing you want.
Political out of sight, out of mind? Pretend that we are all happy?
You’ve turned a different direction if you are saying that Republican lawmakers are so stupid as to have to learn behaviors from the Dems…
No one has seen the level of corruption as this Republican administration & congress. We don’t clean it up by putting a bow on it & calling it something else.
Don’t spare me Chris - its clear you are not
“Sorry to disagree with me.”
So let’s niot preface with an opening that is clearly different than what you really mean or feel. Honesty is a better policy, Chris.
I agree that the Dems have left too much unchallenged. Why is that?
A white house occupant too arrogant to allow his minions to honor legal subpoenas? Is that the kind of rule of law you want?
It does not prevent the Repubs from being obstructionist.
Why are you so concerned about what the Dems are getting done?
I don’t know where you stand on every issue, but the general thrust is clear.
It seems exceedingly disingenuous of you - if what DEMs WOULD be getting done is quite different than your preferred outcome. If you don’t want their decisions - you should actually be ecstatic, if what you claim is true - that NOTHING is getting done.
Don’t say they haven’t got ANYTHING done though - takes a very, very convenient memory to fabricate that.
Mockingbird,
I want a link to a death threat on Bill O’Reilly’s website. There isn’t any and there never have been. O’Reilly, unlink the Daily Kos, has people who monitor the site and take down offensive comments. Also, I challenge you to quote where Bill O’Reilly has lied, since you have called him a liar. On the other hand, I can link to dozens of pretty terrible things on the Kos, including comments about how Pawlenty has blood on his hands and should go get f*cked. Finally, what is the difference between Bush meeting with talk radio people and all of the Presidential candidates meeting with the Daily Kos attendees?
Chris
“O’Reilly did a great segment with Sen. Dodd the other day calling out some of the pretty ridiculous and outright hateful things written on Kos”
LOLOLS That interview only proves how O’Reilly calls people names and shouts people down. That’s not a very good example. Go there and find that huge list of hateful things, Chris. I challenge you to find some.
Just to offer you a perspective, here’s what we think about that interview. http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/08/02/chris-dodd-smacks-down-oreilly-about-daily-kos-the-video/
Nitro,
Dodd would not answer O’Reilly’s questions nor would he denounce the vile cartoon that has been on the Kos web site for over a year depicting Dodd’s friend of over 30 years, Joe Lieberman.
I read the comments you linked to on Dodd’s presidential site. The funny thing is that Dodd is playing the Kos people like a fiddle in that he went on O’Reilly’s show to not answer any questions and to do some fundraising to get his failing presidential campaign off the ground. If you don’t see that, you’re wearing blinders.
Now, I’d like you (and Mockingbird) to read this and watch a video clip here:
http://pajamasmedia.com/2007/08/soldier_censored_at_kos_conven.php
It shows a soldier being censored from speaking out at the Kos convention. He was also threatened by a convention organizer that he be turned in and dishonorably discharged. The soldier talked about his experience in Iraq and the experiences of others with respect to the surge.
Here’s a link to O’Reilly inviting Al Qaeda to blow up San Fransisco, actual link to actual audio on this page. HIS OWN WORDS, which in the Dodd interview he denies. http://mediamatters.org/items/200511100008
P.S. Nitro,
I read some of the comments directed at O’Reilly on the crooksandliars link you provided. Not something to be proud of, that’s for sure. I’ve listened to talk radio (Rush in particular) for 17 years and have never heard a person call a show and call someone else the kind of names the people called O’Reilly on the post you cited.
Good Chris, I’m glad you see that. They are fairly pissed off, as you can see, just as I have been at you, and don’t you forget it.
Jon Soltz is from Vote Vets.org, and is a veteran himself.
I recall NO LIBERALS being invited to any of Bush’s campaign events and many were escorted out of his events for merely having a Kerry pin or bumper sticker on their car.
Regardless, if one wanted to disrupt a left wing event and feed the smear campaign being waged against Liberals in America, send in a talking point repeating troop and video the fun. Voilla. It proves how scared all you righties are of us little moonbats.
Remember what I told you in previous posts about the right wing smearing the left at every turn, rather than reaching out? That’s the prime example.
Smear and smear and smear and then wonder “Why are Liberals so angry?” I’ve explained to you why. What are you going to do about it? We’ve had six years of your bullshit.
Smear more? Go right ahead. It doesn’t stick like it used to, does it?
I like this analogy.
Lets say a police officer hates bank robbers. What O’Reilly is doing to KOS is the same as smearing the police for hating bank robbers.
There is no concern, in O’Reillys case, to ask why there is so much hatred. I’m sure he knows it’s because he’s smeared and smeared and smears for so many years, but doesn’t really care. What matters is they hate, and it doesn’t matter why.
Well it does matter, Chris. There are probably more than 100 million Liberals in the US, maybe more…..maybe a lot more. How long do you think the Republican Party can spit in our face every single day before we say “ENOUGH”?
How long?
I’m glad, of late, that you have stopped spitting by name calling. Perhaps you should also reconsider ripping on Liberals using such loosely defined things as “KOS is a hate site”. That’s up there with the War on Christmas, Kerry’s botched joke, Pelosi’s Plane, Edwards haircut, Hillary’s cleavage and all the other stupid assed smears.
That’s not moving America forward.
Nitro,
I appreciate your points but I would like to remind you that I don’t think I ever called you a name whereas you used to constantly call me a loser among other things that I won’t mention. When I did lash out in anger, I apologize for not living up to the proper standards of political discourse. Swiftee and others have called names and I prefer to talk about substance and not flames.
OK, let’s get back to the substance. That gentleman who tried to speak at the Daily Kos was not a smear merchant. All he wanted to do was give his point of view as a soldier who fought in Iraq. His point of view is no more or less valuable than anyone else’s who came back from the war.
As for the Daily Kos itself, do you approve of the “cartoon” depicting Sen. Joe Lieberman performing oral sex on President Bush that has been up on the Kos for a year? Do you approve of saying Pawlenty and Bush have blood on their hands (among other things I’d rather not quote)? Also, I do not consider talking about Kerry’s “joke” or the hypocrisy of Sen. John Edwards (going on a poverty tour while charging $50,000 and then paying more for a single haircut than most Americans pay in a whole year) to be smears any more than I consider talking about William Jefferson’s $90,000 or Duke Cunningham’s jail term (maybe they will be bunkmates soon) to be smears.
It you want to read the worst and most vile comments about this disaster go to MDE. I hardly ever go to that site, but I was curious what the righties were saying. It is disgusting. This gotcha game is so childish, somebody said this, they said that. How about we all GROW UP.
Asking questions as to why this bridge failed, how and why the inspections failed to predict it, how the original design contributed are all legitimate questions. We won’t know they answer for many months, but it is human nature to speculate in the absence of facts. Just watch 24 hour news on any channel you choose.
It also worthwhile to discuss the lack of funding for ongoing maintenance and infrastructure in Minnesota and nationwide. It is my belief that the philosophies espoused by David Strom and the Taxpayers League, Grover Norquist, the Center for the American Experiment etal have contributed to what inevitably occurs when you neglect to maintain.
How long would your car go if you never changed the oil? If you keep driving on bald tires would you be surprised if you have a blow out? This stuff is very expensive, you have to have the revenue to do it. It’s not sexy, doesn’t help any interest groups except the construction industry. However business in the Metro area will find out just how much they depend on the government to provide the infrastructure for commerce.
I’m sick of hearing how “I did it all my self” from the righties and libertarians. If you drive on a public road, went to a public school, went to a state college or university, got a student loan, breathe relatively clean air, drink clean safe water, eat safe food or flush your crap down the sewer, you depend on the government everyday for the very necessities of life. If you want to depend on the market to take of you I suggest you eat only food imported from China, buy your children toys coated in lead paint and enjoy what’s left of you life.
It takes investments in infrastructure AND people. People smarter than me have the statistics to show that both pay off in the long run. Stop worrying only about yourselves and look to the big picture. I’ve been involved with the Boy Scouts for many years, not exactly a liberal organization, but they understand duty to country and selflessness of purpose. A citizen is concerned for his country and all those who reside therein, not just those in their gated community.
Nitro,
Entitlements generally encompass Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, which, according, to your stats is 25% of the federal budget. That number will only increase as the number of individuals, that is baby boomers, become eligible for those programs.
Mockingbird,
You’re failry off base in your comments. You dislike Fox News because they do not spout the liberal mainstream line like CNN, MSNBC, PBS, etc. I have yet to see proof that Fox News has fabricated news. Rather, it’s the old liberal dinosaurs, such as CBS a la the National Guard papers and the New Republic a la the phony Iraq soldier stories, that are the organizations who have actually produced patently false information to further their own agenda. You are entitled to your own set of opinions, but not your own facts. It is you who is the one who needs to be more searching in the information you receive.
As for blogs, if they are off limits, then I fully expect criticism of MDE in the future to be off limits, too.
Rick,
Dovetailing on my comments to Nitro about the Daily Kos, I’d like to know if you went to the Daily Kos and Democrats Underground to read what they had to say about the tragedy? “F*ck Pawlenty in every way I know how and all the ways I don’t.” “Pawlenty and Molnau have blood on their hands.” And those are just two comments.
As for the substance of your post, I’d like you to know that 2006 was the biggest road construction year in Minnesota history. 2005 was the second biggest and 2004 was the third biggest. To say Pawlenty wasn’t maintaining our infrastructure is just plain wrong. Moreover, last session Pawlenty proposed over $1.7 billion in spending on highways and bridges. It didn’t even get passed out of committee in the DFL controlled Senate Transportation Committee. Today I was on a conference call listening to legislative leaders and those involved in the recovery. They took two questions: one had to do with whether the road construction might have caused the collapse. The other question was whether the bridge cleanup and rebuilding would use money slated for transit.
If you’re going to claim that Pawlenty is to blame for not raising taxes, then isn’t the legislature also to blame for spending on transit instead of maintaining our roads and bridges?
The truth is that neither is probably to blame. We won’t know until the investigation is completed. Those blaming Strom, Norquist and Pawlenty had better be careful, however, because they were the same people pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into light rail and transit at the expense of roads and bridges.
Rick,
I ask you to read my earlier posts where I talk about funding and priorities. Blaming those who want low taxes for poor maintenance is no different than Republicans who point to the huge amounts spent on light rail or social sevices. It comes down to politicians on both sides of the aisle promising more than they can deliver and hiding the true costs of what they promise. Democrats may support slightly higher taxes but they promise more as well.
KH and Chris,
I read your posts, I have been saying this for months and years. This not just a Pawlenty problem. This goes back years to Arne, Jesse and before.
However if you hate taxes, believe government is the problem, and philosophically are opposed to government spending on anything that doesn’t benefit you directly, you are part of the problem. Look in the mirror.
We’ve had this argument before. you were wrong then and you are wrong now. As I have said before on this blog, borrowing money for capital improvement projects makes some economic sense due to the effects of inflation (funny how it effects building projects but not the state budget). Yes Pawlenty has been busy building lanes for suburban commuters, he proposed borrowing lots of money through bonding to do major projects, OK. But that is not sustainable over the long run. Debt must be serviced. Do you let your roof leak until your house rots or re-shingle the roof? What’s cheaper, pissing away your investment and then building a new house, or maintaining what you have?
Do I go to KOS and TPM and Huff Post, sure I do, along with Powerline and MDE and others. I don’t usually read the comments posted on the national blogs. There are jerks on both sides of the spectrum. I suggest you read swiftee and some others on MDE. I try not to get into the personal attacks and respond and post the issues. What some moron posted on Kos or MDE is irrelevant. I was pointing out that both sides have their wingers.
I still maintain that we all have a responsibility to the greater good. Call it socialism, call it Christian, Jesus was the original communist if you believe the Bible. Call it what you will. If all you seek is for yourself than I pity you.
Rick.
“I still maintain that we all have a responsibility to the greater good.”
That says it all. The greater good includes every American. Bush is the President of us all, regardless of party. He represents only a few.
Chris,
You just don’t get it do you. I explain the problem with smears, and you smear. I explain that the smears increase Liberal anger towards you, and you smear. I explain how we’ve had enough and you smear. For some reason, your smears are always justified. It’s almost as if you listen to O’Reilly every day! My god, that is a sick mind he’s helped you develop. You defend a haircut being a National issue? You continue to smear KOS of all things? KOS served his Country in the army, by the way.
Do you support what the comments that are at MDE?
Some of the things you and other posters at MDE say parrot Anne Coulter, who jokes regularly about KILLING LIBERALS! It is indeed sick. She has more in common with terrorists than most Americans because of her “jokes”. You don’t think she makes a lot of people angry?
All of your bullshit about “civil discourse” becomes irrelevant very quickly when you take the low road.
You smear and smear and smear. I’m supposed to respect you? How is that even possible? Tell me please.
Nitro,
What did I smear in my previous post? We can disagree on policy without smearing. My discussion was disagreement not a smear. I think you get those two mixed up. Also, do you ever watch O’Reilly or listen to Rush Limbaugh? I think you only read clips on Media Matters and other left wing sites. And by the way, I’ve never defended Ann Coulter although I will say that none of the Presidential candidates on the Republican side are courting Coulter’s endorsement. You can’t say that about Kos.
P.S. I never said anything about him personally. I don’t really care one way or the other about his military service in that it has nothing to do with what he promotes on his web site (like pictures of Joe Lieberman performing oral sex on Bush).
P.P.S. Don’t get too worked up about Ann Coulter assassinating liberals. There are about a dozen liberal movies depicting the assassination of our President not to mention some stuff on Huffington Post about how it would have been better if Cheney’s heart just stopped working. Where is the condemnation of those movies and posts?
Rick,
You make a fundamental mistake and it affects everything seem to believe. It is that people that desire a smaller government do so out of a desire to see others suffer and to simply enrich themselves. With that viewpoint you have closed off any hope of real debate and fall into arrogant and insulting statements involving pity or that you are right and others are simply wrong. It is dogmatic and destructive.
My wife, mother, sister and many of my friends are DFLer and I as recently as the last election worked on the campaign for a DFL state rep. We have all learned that we have a strong desire to see the most people with the best lives possible but disagree sometimes on the mechanisms to make that happen. This is true for most everybody though both sides have their share of people that promote policies that are simply self serving.
You attribute ugly characteristics to people you disagree with in order to dehumanize them. Some do the same in return. If you feel pity consider the fact that pity is really just arrogance disguised by false altruism.
What I what first and foremost is accountability and transparency in our government. We need to be able to watch how are government is working and have sustainable sources of revenue for what it is doing. Unfunded mandates, promises of future payments in entitlement programs, the cash debt and deferred maintenance on everything from transportation to the power grid will come back to bite us in ways much more costly than the recent bridge collapse.
During the last session I posted about being in support of an increase in the gas tax and also that both sides were doing the wrong thing by supporting an increase to the number of lanes or trains or creating new routes for people to live further away from where they work or play. We need to quit subsidizing inefficient and destructive behavior first then talk about how government can help in other ways. What we are doing with transportation is like subsidizing tobacco farms and suing the cigarette companies. We are making traveling cheaper and easier while spending millions on ethanol and subsidies for hybrid car purchases. That is the type of government spending I would like to eliminate.
Rick,
You’re right that the problem with transportation infrastructure goes back at least 16 years. I would say it goes back even farther when Perpich was making every road in northern MN a four lane while the metro and southern MN highways got neglected. You have Pawlenty’s record on highways and bridges wrong, however. Pawlenty has been the first Governor in more than a generation to build roads in Southern Minnesota - including expanding Highway 14 from Mankato to Owatonna and the Hwy 52 project in Rochester as well as Hwy 60 around the Worthington area. Also, what in the hell do you call the construction on 35-W around South Minneapolis as well as the construction near downtown Minneapolis that possibly led to the collapse?
Also, you fundamentally do not understand conservatism or the conservative view of government. Not all government programs are created equally. With a $36 billion budget, there should be enough money to build roads and repair infrastructure. It’s about what we spend money on. As I mentioned, the focus at the legislature has been on metropolitan transit and light rail - not on highways and bridges. Last year when we voted to dedicate the MVST to transportation, there was a huge fight to make sure that AT LEAST 40% of the money went to transit and NO MORE THAN 60% went to roads and bridges (emphasis added).
As for bonding, we bond for swimming pools, the Guthrie, arts centers, community halls, the Schubert, a Twins stadium, and a million other buildings and trails around the state, there isn’t any logic that says we shouldn’t bond for roads too. We also could have taken part of the $2 billion surplus and put that into highways and bridges too.
I say all of this in the context of a discussion about the role of government not as part of the blame game that is happening now. I do not blame the DFL who voted against $1.7 billion on roads and put hundreds of millions in transportation any more than I blame the governor for not raising taxes.
One more thing, Nitro,
The issues with Edwards and his haricut are not a smear, if that is what you are referring. It’s about hypocrisy. It’s about a guy who tells people to live their lives one way while he lives his life another. Isn’t that the problem with politicians on both sides of the aisle? I really don’t see any difference between Edwards and his “poverty tour,” his multi-multi million dollar home, his $1400 haircuts and this Vitter guy who cheated on his wife with hookers.
Chris, I acknowledged Pawlenty’s road building. I disagreed with his vetoing of a bipartisan funding mechanisms 2 times. You can’t believe that borrowing is the only way to fund roads. I think it is a useful tool along with gas taxes, license fees etc.
KH, I didn’t mean to attack you or Chris personally in the later part of my last post. It really is about my philosophy of government.
You may disagree, but it is how I feel. Transit is an important part of any future discussion of how we get around our area. Not everyone can afford a car, or wants to own car. As the cost of highway construction shows, roads are heavily subsidized, as is freight rail, light rail, buses and air transport.
Commerce cannot exist without the infrastructure to support it.
Rick,
I agree that all of those forms of transit are subsidized heavily and that commerce cannot exist without transportation. The question is why we have to subsidize it so heavily in every form when commerce would be willing to pay for it in a more direct manor. Doing so would encourage less sprawl, denser communities and more efficient businesses. My problem is that the current system is subsidizing bad behavior and calling it good for business. More direct payment methods for transit, gas/carbon tax for roads, fares for trains, etc. encourage use of the most efficient system. If we want to help those who cannot afford cars I would love to find a way to do that but don’t think we should disguise it in a bad funding mechanism.
Chris,
First off Edwards isn’t doing anything illegal, Vitter did.
Second, the haircut argument is ridiculous because it sets this rule:
No Democrat who is successful may run for office.
Tell me Chris, is it possible for a poor man to win an election?
So nobody who talks about Poverty can raise money for their campaign? What you are doing is shutting the door on any Presidential candidate talking about poverty, and I think poverty is an important issue.
And by the way, don’t you dare tell me what to get worked up about and what not to. You don’t deserve making that decision for me.
Yes I have watched O’Reilly and listen to Rush. Usually I can only take it for a short while because it makes me quite angry. Why? BECAUSE THEY SMEAR AND SMEAR AND SMEAR.
O’Reilly casually decides large groups of people are scum. He insults people every show again and again. He is the best example of a piece of human garbage I’ve ever seen. Rush doesn’t stoop as low, but repeats talking points I’ve heard over and over and over again. Why do I need to hear that again?
If they put as much attention and effort and scrutiny to their own party perhaps mistake after mistake after mistake wouldn’t have been made. Perhaps fewer troops would be dead.
You say Chris,
“Today I was on a conference call listening to legislative leaders and those involved in the recovery. They took two questions: one had to do with whether the road construction might have caused the collapse. The other question was whether the bridge cleanup and rebuilding would use money slated for transit.”
What legislative leaders? Who involved in the recovery?
Tsk, Tsk, Chris -
Why do you seem to believe you can take one comment on a forum & broad brush everyone else who ever visits the site on that basis?
It could be a troll of any stripe. oR merely a person with a few problems.
Why, if I read only your comments & “conservatives” - I would have a stilted view of this blog & forum.
Chris…
Chris Aug 3rd, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Mockingbird,
Doesn’t BUSH have the right to talk about more than one topic in a Rose Garden press conference?
______
Going back to this one -
all you did was try to browbeat for a somewhat non sequitor - which was even identified as tangental.
Yet you seem to weave disparate topics into your posts now & again of dubious parentage. The only point of congruence being that they are positions you personally want to forward.
AND you tell me that Bush can talk about whatever he wishes & enters his head, that I cannot be offended that he shoehorned the tragedy? Are you serious?
Bush used it as a device. If it was “inappropriate” for a distraught friend to go overboard in grief at the Wellstone funeral, or at least be painted as such…
then surely it was flip for Bush using the emotion & topic of the bridge tragedy to appear to tie with his gripes about congress.
Now THAT was a non sequitor on Bush’s part! AND calculated.
Chris… if you honestly don’t see a difference between Vitter - and Edwards, then you should seek advice, and often.
Please listen to it instead of just OPINING.
There is a great deal of deliberation & dishonesty in Vitter’s hypocrisy. Some of it involved his breach of his wedding vows, his mistreatment of his wife & humiliating her. That may be more for them to deal personally.
Another portion is his adamant & vocal support for precisely the opposite of what he does himself.
Why do people like Vitter always rail against - what turns out to be personal demons for them? H doth protst so much, it makes me suspicious. Just like holier-than-thou preachers who have a secret life.
Vitter’s wife shot off her mouth about another’s situation in public, which had nothing at all to do with her. Now she wants compassion & understanding down a one way street? Unbelievable!
Your estimation of Edwards in this says that you think he is a hypocrite because he is successful & spent money on a haircut.
Are you that well off, that you think he is a traitor to his class?
Chris,
A pic for you, since you are such a big fan of O’Reilly.
I have a brother and three brother-in-laws serving, two are overseas right now.
Here’s a pic of my wife’s brother (Sgt) Josh, who’s gets to protect celebrities and dignitaries visiting the green zone in Iraq. Josh voted for Kerry, BTW. He served in the 2nd Marines division during the invasion. This pic was taken this past December.
A couple years ago Josh left the Marines and moved to San Diego. He tried but could not find a decent job there, so he re-enlisted in the National Guard, and is still in Iraq today.
He’s coming home soon and has accepted a security job in Washington. He’s a great guy, he served his country, and yes, he could be labeled a “Liberal Democrat”, the type of person who Bill O’Reilly would broad brush into his commentary of someone who is scum, because of the websites he uses and visits.
I’m sure he’s been to KOS, and the many other very popular sites like Huffington Post or Truthout. He uses Myspace to talk to my wife often.
My point is, the broad brushes O’Reilly uses includes a lot of good, patriotic Democrats. I would hope in the future you remember that. Pat Tillman was a Liberal Democrat. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/jhuth/mail.jpg
I want a link to a death threat on Bill O’Reilly’s website. There isn’t any and there never have been. O’Reilly, unlink the Daily Kos, has people who monitor the site and take down offensive comments.
http://mediamatters.org/static/images/item/oreillycomment-1.jpg
http://mediamatters.org/static/images/item/oreillycomment-2.jpg
http://mediamatters.org/static/images/item/oreillycomment-3.jpg
http://mediamatters.org/static/images/item/oreillycomment-4.jpg
“Also, I challenge you to quote where Bill O’Reilly has lied, since you have called him a liar.”
At the time Bill was insisting that they remove posts of those nature, they were still there-He was lying
His claims about the success of his French boycott were a lie, and he quoted a made up publication to make it sound legit.
O’Reilly said that Tax rates under Clinton were the highest since WWII. Surprise surprise- that is false.
I could go on and on and on and on-its too easy
Pretty weak, SeanH, pretty weak. None of those posts by media matters is threatening to assassinate Democrats. All the people said was if Hillary gets elected there will be a revolution in this country. Pretty hot rhetoric, but nobody said they were going to kill Hillary. Contrast that with the movies being made about how great it would be to kill our current President as well as the articles on the Huffington Post about how we would be better off if Cheney’s cold black heart just quit working. There is a huge difference.
Also, O’Reilly did not say that the taxes were highest under Bill Clinton. Read his books and how he talks about the terrible economy under Jimmy Carter when taxes were in the 70% range. Finally, Media Matters is a left wing website known for taking comments out of context and even editing them. Why don’t you actually watch O’Reilly instead of reading what someone else has to say about him?
Chris is right: there is no difference between the hypocrisy of Vitter and Edwards. I agree that Vitter cannot reasonably present himself as an advocate for family values if he frequents prostitutes. Likewise, Edwards cannot reasonably present himself as an advocate for poverty when his lifestyle is completely contrary to his position. And spare me the dichotomy of the two positions because moral indiscretions — even if they conceal an potentially illegal act (e.g. sexual harassment or perjury) — were deemed off-limits by your side (“move on”) during the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal. Thus, all we’re left with, apparently, is public (not private) virtue as an issue for discussion. And, in this case, Edwards public virtue — the alignment of his Beverly Hills lifestyle to his political position on poverty — don’t add up. Same thing goes for the global warming crowd (Al Gore and the Hollywood elites), who are the most egregrious offenders of the lifestyle they want the rest of us to follow.
Nitro,
Good comments and great picture. I could post two of my own pics with O’Reilly but I don’t have them on digital format. O’Reilly isn’t perfect and he’s made mistakes. On one show he interviewed Dick Gephardt and introduced him as the former Speaker of the House. I e-mailed O’Reilly and told him Gephardt was never Speaker but Minority Leader. He issued the correction and sent me a signed book for catching his mistake.
I completely believe there are honest hard working Democrats serving in the military. I believe they have something important to say about our current military situation in Iraq. I also believe there are honest and hard working conservatives in the military who have something important to say about Iraq (like the gentleman who was silenced and threatened at the Yearly Kos). Reasonable minds can disagree and remain decent patriotic people. I just prefer when the vitriol is taken out of the equation.
Mockingbird,
There is a great deal of deliberation and dishonesty in the lifestyles of John Edwards and Al Gore, among others, who want to use government to regulate how you and I live but then live a completely different lifestyle for themselves. Bobby Kennedy, Jr. is a perfect example of this. He preaches dire predictions due to global warming but flies around in private jets (which pollute ten times in one trip what a family car pollutes in a whole year) and opposes wind energy in Coastal Massachusetts. Hypocirsy does not discriminate between political parties. The difference is I will not defend Vitter’s conduct while a bunch of people will defend Kennedy’s and Edwards’ lifestyles.
Quite frankly I don’t understand your beef with Bush’s rose garden press conference and I’m even more confused by your last comments about it. Bush did not use the bridge tragedy to attack Democrats. He talked about the bridge tragedy and then changed subjects in a 45 minute press conference. End of story.
Chris,
“who want to use government to regulate how you and I live”
Can you explain to us what that means?
Where’s the connection between that and people who are successful and run as Democrats?
Elaborate, please.
Chris, on O’Reilly
“O’Reilly isn’t perfect and he’s made mistakes”
Yes we all are very aware of that. http://www.crooksandliars.com/index.php?s=O‘Reilly