Comments on: Anatomy of A Controversy http://mnpublius.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/ Tracking Minnesota Politics Since 2005 Sun, 21 Mar 2010 04:17:15 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Kerosene Hat http://mnpublius.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11198 Kerosene Hat Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:30:31 +0000 http://s23139.gridserver.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11198 Ever hear about a tyranny of a majority? Most of our constitution is set up to check the power of the majority and government. Voting is supposed to be our way of checking the tendency government has to grow and oppress it's citizens. Voting was never meant as a method to manage almost every aspect of our lives as it now does. As for evidence of a compromised voting system goes I guess you didn't understand my post. As you can see evidenced in this thread and on almost every blog in the country the fact that there is a high potential for fraud is enough to make people believe that our last presidential election was stolen. Integrity in the system includes our confidence in it, without that democracy is meaningless. Our system being the easiest also means it is the least likely to leave evidence of fraud. Making sure each vote is legitimate is every bit as important as making sure that everybody who wants to vote can. A fraudulent vote cancels out a legitimate one. This can't be about a system with either integrity OR access. It has to be as close to perfect for both as we can get. Ever hear about a tyranny of a majority? Most of our constitution is set up to check the power of the majority and government. Voting is supposed to be our way of checking the tendency government has to grow and oppress it’s citizens. Voting was never meant as a method to manage almost every aspect of our lives as it now does.

As for evidence of a compromised voting system goes I guess you didn’t understand my post. As you can see evidenced in this thread and on almost every blog in the country the fact that there is a high potential for fraud is enough to make people believe that our last presidential election was stolen. Integrity in the system includes our confidence in it, without that democracy is meaningless.

Our system being the easiest also means it is the least likely to leave evidence of fraud. Making sure each vote is legitimate is every bit as important as making sure that everybody who wants to vote can. A fraudulent vote cancels out a legitimate one. This can’t be about a system with either integrity OR access. It has to be as close to perfect for both as we can get.

]]> By: Sean http://mnpublius.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11197 Sean Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:39:18 +0000 http://s23139.gridserver.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11197 <i>"Ease of voting has to be balanced with integrity of the system."</i> We have arguably the easiest voting procedure in the country. You concerned about the integrity of our system? Seen much evidence that the integrity of the system is compromised? <i>Also there are an almost infinite number of things more important to being responsible citizen than voting. Stuff like not stealing from or assaulting people. Voting is only the most important thing for those who think our lives should be run by the government."</i> Hmmm... methinks we disagree here. The key bit to 'citizenship' is a Government to bestow it-- and thankfully we get to decide our Government through voting. And all of the things you say "not stealing or assaulting people" rests on law, and a Government to enforce those-- which again, we get through voting. Sean “Ease of voting has to be balanced with integrity of the system.”

We have arguably the easiest voting procedure in the country. You concerned about the integrity of our system? Seen much evidence that the integrity of the system is compromised?

Also there are an almost infinite number of things more important to being responsible citizen than voting. Stuff like not stealing from or assaulting people. Voting is only the most important thing for those who think our lives should be run by the government.”

Hmmm… methinks we disagree here.

The key bit to ‘citizenship’ is a Government to bestow it — and thankfully we get to decide our Government through voting. And all of the things you say “not stealing or assaulting people” rests on law, and a Government to enforce those — which again, we get through voting.

Sean

]]> By: Big Kahuna http://mnpublius.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11210 Big Kahuna Wed, 09 Jan 2008 19:18:16 +0000 http://s23139.gridserver.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11210 Keep crying Randy, unfortunatly for you not much of the world see's it the way you are dreaming up. Ever notice how the whole "he stole the election" thing has died off? ;) Kind of like the Wellstone was killed ideas, they are just not based in reality. Somehow though I did not figure you for a black helicopter kind of guy. Who knew? ;) Keep crying Randy, unfortunatly for you not much of the world see’s it the way you are dreaming up. Ever notice how the whole “he stole the election” thing has died off? ;) Kind of like the Wellstone was killed ideas, they are just not based in reality.

Somehow though I did not figure you for a black helicopter kind of guy. Who knew? ;)

]]> By: Randy http://mnpublius.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11209 Randy Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:06:28 +0000 http://s23139.gridserver.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11209 Actually, I was referring to the systematic purge of African-Americans from the voting register in Florida. I didn't say a word about the Bush supporters who used physical intimidation to shut the recout down. Try reading the Supreme Curt's decision in Bush v. Gore sometime. See how happy with the Court's jurisprudence you would be if it were Bush trying for the recount, instead of the other way around. Actually, I was referring to the systematic purge of African-Americans from the voting register in Florida. I didn’t say a word about the Bush supporters who used physical intimidation to shut the recout down.

Try reading the Supreme Curt’s decision in Bush v. Gore sometime. See how happy with the Court’s jurisprudence you would be if it were Bush trying for the recount, instead of the other way around.

]]> By: Big Kahuna http://mnpublius.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11208 Big Kahuna Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:00:19 +0000 http://s23139.gridserver.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11208 Sean, Mea Moua did just that years ago! She even admitted that she went out and filled a bus full of people she would vouch for and get their votes in. We have many reports over the years of the DFL picking up these people and trading Ciggs and booze for votes. Randy, do you mean the FL supreme court who was not following the law and was trying to give the election to Gore? ;) the law was followed and the even more funny part of your claim is no one was able to get the counts needs for Gore to win unless you threw out the military vote which Gore did try to do. Whine all you like but the fact of the matter was that Gore lost his ass because he was a terrible candidate and you know it! Same with Kerry! you LOST twice, no fraud what so ever. :) By the way, did I tell you all who you will be voting for president in November. Why it will be Hillary of course. Silly liberals, did you actually think Clinton would just sit by and let that punk get past her? ;) Sean, Mea Moua did just that years ago! She even admitted that she went out and filled a bus full of people she would vouch for and get their votes in. We have many reports over the years of the DFL picking up these people and trading Ciggs and booze for votes.

Randy, do you mean the FL supreme court who was not following the law and was trying to give the election to Gore? ;) the law was followed and the even more funny part of your claim is no one was able to get the counts needs for Gore to win unless you threw out the military vote which Gore did try to do. Whine all you like but the fact of the matter was that Gore lost his ass because he was a terrible candidate and you know it! Same with Kerry! you LOST twice, no fraud what so ever. :)

By the way, did I tell you all who you will be voting for president in November. Why it will be Hillary of course. Silly liberals, did you actually think Clinton would just sit by and let that punk get past her? ;)

]]> By: Kerosene Hat http://mnpublius.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11207 Kerosene Hat Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:44:28 +0000 http://s23139.gridserver.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11207 Sean, Ease of voting has to be balanced with integrity of the system. Otherwise your vote doesn't mean much. Also there are an almost infinite number of things more important to being responsible citizen than voting. Stuff like not stealing from or assaulting people. Voting is only the most important thing for those who think our lives should be run by the government. Sean,

Ease of voting has to be balanced with integrity of the system. Otherwise your vote doesn’t mean much.

Also there are an almost infinite number of things more important to being responsible citizen than voting. Stuff like not stealing from or assaulting people. Voting is only the most important thing for those who think our lives should be run by the government.

]]> By: Sean http://mnpublius.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11206 Sean Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:30:45 +0000 http://s23139.gridserver.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11206 <i>"The problem I have with same day registration is that it makes it too easy for parties to go out and scoop up a bunch of folks who otherwise would not have voted and offer "prizes" for them going in to vote."</i> So, prove that has happened. It can't be hard. You've got facts and proof right? The reason I support same day registration is it makes it easier for folks to vote-- and I can't think of anything in our civic life that is more important than voting. Sean “The problem I have with same day registration is that it makes it too easy for parties to go out and scoop up a bunch of folks who otherwise would not have voted and offer “prizes” for them going in to vote.”

So, prove that has happened. It can’t be hard. You’ve got facts and proof right?

The reason I support same day registration is it makes it easier for folks to vote — and I can’t think of anything in our civic life that is more important than voting.

Sean

]]> By: Randy http://mnpublius.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11205 Randy Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:25:55 +0000 http://s23139.gridserver.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11205 BK, when Republicans talk about "voter fraud," they mean unauthorized voting. They do not mean the systematic denial of the franchise that allowed President Bush to claim victory in Florida. There is a big difference between the two. BK, when Republicans talk about “voter fraud,” they mean unauthorized voting. They do not mean the systematic denial of the franchise that allowed President Bush to claim victory in Florida.

There is a big difference between the two.

]]> By: Kerosene Hat http://mnpublius.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11204 Kerosene Hat Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:15:05 +0000 http://s23139.gridserver.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11204 While I am in favor of same day registration I think the idea of requiring reasonable safeguards against fraud are important. Even if there has yet to be any large scale fraud shown the potential does exist. I also don't like electronic voting without a paper trail. With both pure electronic voting and the honor system registration the potential for fraud undermines the publics trust of our system. Asking people to provide election officials with some sort of evidence of their address isn't a big enough burden that it should outweigh ensuring a valid election. In no way does such a step equate to a poll tax. All we would need to do is provide free state identification for anybody and ask schools to put addresses on student I.D.s. This and the ability to use recent utility bills and copies of leases, etc. should be fine. This would be a small price to pay for such an important link in our system. The same goes for the costs involved with providing paper trails for electronic voting. The idea that we should reduce the integrity of our elections simply to provide for the tiny percentage of people that would not make such a minimal effort is ridiculous. While I am in favor of same day registration I think the idea of requiring reasonable safeguards against fraud are important. Even if there has yet to be any large scale fraud shown the potential does exist. I also don’t like electronic voting without a paper trail. With both pure electronic voting and the honor system registration the potential for fraud undermines the publics trust of our system.

Asking people to provide election officials with some sort of evidence of their address isn’t a big enough burden that it should outweigh ensuring a valid election. In no way does such a step equate to a poll tax. All we would need to do is provide free state identification for anybody and ask schools to put addresses on student I.D.s. This and the ability to use recent utility bills and copies of leases, etc. should be fine. This would be a small price to pay for such an important link in our system. The same goes for the costs involved with providing paper trails for electronic voting. The idea that we should reduce the integrity of our elections simply to provide for the tiny percentage of people that would not make such a minimal effort is ridiculous.

]]> By: Big Kahuna http://mnpublius.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11199 Big Kahuna Wed, 09 Jan 2008 16:55:19 +0000 http://s23139.gridserver.com/2008/01/anatomy-of-a-controversy/#comment-11199 the problem I have with same day registration is that it makes it too easy for parties to go out and scoop up a bunch of folks who otherwise would not have voted and offer "prizes" for them going in to vote. Voting should take a little effort! If you truely care enough to vote, than you should care enough to get registered and and be ready come the day of the election. Should you think you will have a problem getting to the polls, the state offers other ways of entering your vote. I believe the reason why democRats fight tooth and nail for this is because they know a significant amount of their voters are just the kind of people I mention. The DFL here locally has gone out with busses and picked up loads of people and get them to go in and vote DFL. I am sure it also happens on the GOP side too, just not to the same degree. I think it would be good for all of that to stop. Voting is a right, but should be looked at as a privelege! We would all be better served by attaching some level of resposibility to the voting process. Sean what is your reasoning for same day? the problem I have with same day registration is that it makes it too easy for parties to go out and scoop up a bunch of folks who otherwise would not have voted and offer “prizes” for them going in to vote.

Voting should take a little effort! If you truely care enough to vote, than you should care enough to get registered and and be ready come the day of the election. Should you think you will have a problem getting to the polls, the state offers other ways of entering your vote.

I believe the reason why democRats fight tooth and nail for this is because they know a significant amount of their voters are just the kind of people I mention. The DFL here locally has gone out with busses and picked up loads of people and get them to go in and vote DFL. I am sure it also happens on the GOP side too, just not to the same degree. I think it would be good for all of that to stop.

Voting is a right, but should be looked at as a privelege! We would all be better served by attaching some level of resposibility to the voting process.

Sean what is your reasoning for same day?

]]>