This weekend At Issue hosted all three DFL Senate candidates for a forum/debate (the video is the second one in the player. I’m having issues embedding it, and it stopped and restarted on me about 4 times while trying to watch it yesterday morning, so caveat emptor). And one thing that struck me about it was how aggressive Mike Ciresi was. I understand the guy wants to win, and to win you must beat your opponents — but I don’t think this is going to have the desired effect for Ciresi.
And then there was this:
“Al Franken has made a living calling people names,” Ciresi said in an interview.
Psst. Mike. FYI, you’re a trail lawyer. Lots of people think that’s a less than honorable way to make a living. I’m fine with it — but glass houses buddy. And really, is the best way to beat Al Franken by attacking him? As you explain later in the article,
“This is really a campaign right now for the hearts and souls of 1,400 people,” Ciresi said.”
Those 1400 people are relatively well informed voters, they know the ups and downs of all the candidates, including you. Do you really think that attacking Al Franken is the best way to highlight your strengths, and do you really think that increasing the volume and tone of your attacks is going to make up any real or perceived ground you lost on caucus night?
More importantly, much more importantly, I know as a superdelegate I don’t like to see this kind of catty attack and I’m not alone.
Lets knock it off shall we and go about acting all Senatorial mmmkay?
I disagree Sean,
Franken has decided to be the frontrunner, not by polls or people, but by money, he raised a crap ton of money, whoo-hoo, last i checked money does not win elections, passion and conviction do. Ciresi is not out of line for calling out Franken’s past, I would’ve phrased it differently but Franken has a tendency to get hot under the collar and call other people names, well that sounds all fine and dandy but we are going up against one of the most skilled politicians that the GOP has, Norm, and he will use this to no end against Franken, This is the 2006 Convention all over again. You have Franken (Hatch) who has raised a ton of money, has the party establishment behind him, and tands to lose his temper….a lot. Then you have JNP (Lourey) who has the strength of their convictions but cannot really break out of their original support group, liberals. Then you have Ciresi (Kelley) who has compassion, DFL party loyalty from past campaigns, and a truly progressive message and grapple of policy to make a difference. The party will likely choose Franken and Franken will go down in a blaze of Glory against Norm, because the election will be about him, not Norm, Franken will loose his Temper as Hatch did numerous times, the election will be close, but i doubt in our favor, I wish the party would choose someone that represents the partys ideals rather than the “best” chance to win in the Fall. Hey but that’s just me, what do you guys and gals think?
Its pretty weak to call for other candidates not to go negative when you have a big lead. Whatever Ciresi was doing (and I am really still not sure what it was) it wasn’t working, so he has nothing to lose by going negative. Its not like Coleman won’t go negative this fall.
Ross, you pretty much nailed it.
I completely agree with you. These attacks are not and will not do Ciresi any good. Why would any Franken supporter or convention delegate endorse Ciresi let alone work for him if he wins the endorsement after all of this nastiness? I know I won’t
At my precinct caucus, someone spoke on Al’s behalf and then someone spoke on Ciresi’s. The Ciresi supporter immediately started attacking Al instead of making the case that Ciresi himself was the best candidate.
Ciresi should focus on himself and Norm and should not be going out of his way to create huge amounts of ill will within the party.
Dan —
It’s as simple as this: I loathe anytime a Democratic candidate provides made for MDE material about another Democrat. You don’t like Al Franken and that is your prerogative, but if Al Franken is our candidate, and it looks like he will — every attack made by a Democrat against him is a freebie for the Republicans.
This doesn’t hurt just Al Franken, it hurts every other Democrat on the ticket from our Presidential candidate down to a candidate for dogcatcher.
I know the Republicans are going to attack Al Franken — hell, that is what MDE is paid to do and receives all those cutsie videos from GOP trackers for. But that is not what another DFL Senate candidate should do.
You say: “Whatever Ciresi was doing (and I am really still not sure what it was) it wasn’t working,” maybe Mike Ciresi should be thinking about what wasn’t working and how to make it work instead of attacking another Democrat.
Ross —
There are many comparisons in your post I disagree with, pretty fundamentally. I hope to address these later, but my lunch is over and I have a paper I have to work on as well, so I’ll try to get to them.
Sean
Here’s the thing, Sean. Once Franken is the nominee - and I concede that were pretty close to that point if not there already, Democrats should not be attacking Franken. But until that point, I think we need to discuss the problems with Franken as a candidate. While you may not believe they are fatal like I do, I know you would agree that Franken’s baggage and history of bad behavior and personal attacks will be campaign issues. If one candidate is especially vulnerable to GOP attacks, that needs to be addressed before the nominee is picked. Ciresi may not be great, and in fact, he really hasn’t shown me anything, but if Franken is terrible, the distinction between mediocre and terrible needs to be made.
The other thing about Ciresi’s attacks, is that while they may be negative, they are not false. Ciresi is not smearing Franken.
I think given Franken’s history and style Ciresi is well withing the bound of acceptable behavior. When an old comic moves to Minnesota to run for one of our three highest elected positions I would hope somebody from the party from which he is asking the nomination might bring up some of his many negatives.
Maybe at this point the only thing that can wake up Franken supporters is a respected member of their party bringing up what an embarrassment he is. Even if it is in a relatively mild manner.
What if the democrats, for a change, endorsed a candidate who was the most qualified, AND had a chance to win? This year, that happens to be Ciresi. Al Franken as a US Senator? Maybe ‘carpetbagger’ doesn’t quite apply, but this guy has returned to Minnesota and raised some money for Democrats entirely to better position himself to run for office. The “Wellstone seat” should have someone better in that chair than someone who, when having a bad day, verbally attacks a Carlton student for being a Republican. That is a far more telling story about the candidate than anything ‘negative’ Mike Ciresi ever said about Franken.
If Barack Obama can talk about his “electability” over Hillary Clinton, why is it not perfectly acceptable for Ciresi to talk about his electability over Al Franken. The fact of the matter is that, whether Democratic delegates like it or not, Franken has written and said some outrageous things that aren’t going to be ignored by the 40% of the electorate that forms the basis of winning any election — the independents. They are certainly going to (and have a right to) ask; does Al Franken have the character and qualities we want in a US Senator; is he in the tradition of a Hubert Humphrey, a Walter Mondale, an Amy Klobuchar? Give me a break.
Ciresi has devoted much of the campaign to stressing the serious policy differences beween he and Al (and Jack) on health care, education, Iraq. I fail to see how telling Minnesota voters that if they want to defeat Norm Coleman he is the best positioned candidate to do that is unhealthy for our party. If Franken is the nominee, he becomes the focal point of the election; if Ciresi is the nominee, Coleman’s record becomes front and center. If the delegates to the DFL convention don’t figure this out, they’ll proceed, like the children who followed the Pied Piper, right into the sea. Again.
I have to say, I’ve been circling around these races since the summer, and every time I hear Ciresi speak, he’s attacking Franken. AND every time I hear his staff talking to someone about the Senate race, they are also attacking Franken! This is no way to run a campaign - remember “anybody but Bush”? Ouch. Too soon?
“I fail to see how telling Minnesota voters that if they want to defeat Norm Coleman he is the best positioned candidate to do that is unhealthy for our party.”
The problem is that Ciresi isn’t highlighting their differences or showing how he might be a better candidate. He’s outright slinging mud! He isn’t taking Al’s policy statements and showing how his are different, he’s taking statements completely out of context and twisting those words. I would expect it from the other party…but for a Democrat to attack another democrat in this manor is disgusting.
Right now he needs to sway delegates if he wants to have any chance of winning the DFL Endorsement. (It’s pretty obvious Franken has the most Delegate support right now)
He is not going to sway Franken supporters by slinging mud at their candidate of choice. That will only offend those delegates. People are sick of politicians who use these dirty tricks. It will only end up hurting Ciresi in the end.
Also, How many of Al’s supporters do you think would actually come out and Volunteer for Ciresi should he somehow win the nomination by using these tactics? And how can he hope to win without that volunteer support?
If Ciresi thinks he will win the DFL endorsement by slinging mud at Al instead of making his case based on his positions and experience, I’m afraid he’s very mistaken. It comes across as a childish temper tantrum of a candidate that is sinking fast. It makes Ciresi look desperate. And no one wants a desperate candidate going into the Election.
I have also noticed Mike starting to go after Jack as well as Al. Does Mike know he is in third place now?
I think this highlights a problem with Ciresi’s campaign. A lot of people on this blog can pinpoint problems with Franken as a candidate, and while a lot of those problems are aesthetic or the product of holding him to an insanely high standard, some are substantive.
Problem is, anyone with half a brain can see these, either because they wish to highlight were the Republicans will/already have hit us, or because they just don’t like Franken. A candidate has to offer a reason to vote for them, and I’m not sure Ciresi really has branded the positive about himself.
Two things:
If there is mud being slung at Franken, its his own mud. What exactly is being taken out of context or being twisted? Are you talking about Franken’s “satire” explanation for anything he doesn’t want to own up to now?
That being said, Ciresi’s campaign really has sucked.
Sean is absolutely right.
Last spring I had some of the same reservations about Franken as other folks. I was nervous about his past, and whether he would be able to get past his celebrity and really work hard at getting the votes of everyday citizens. I looked to Ciresi as a possible alternative, and I gave him up until December to show me something worth supporting. All I ever got from him or his campaign was that he wasn’t Al Franken. I’m sorry, that’s not good enough. There are an awful lot of folks in Minnesota who aren’t Al Franken, but that doesn’t mean any of them would be a good senator or a good candidate. In that same time-span, Franken put my earlier fears to rest by building a huge grassroots organization comprising both established party leaders and a lot of new first-time activists.
Mike Hatch lost because he decided that he didn’t need a real field program or any grassroots infrastructure. He was planning on using television ads exclusively for those last months. He raised just enough money to get his 9 TV ads on there. The problem is that when the media turned on him he didn’t have enough money to put out another ad or any field infrastructure on the ground, so he couldn’t properly respond.
Anyone who thinks Franken is like Hatch clearly doesn’t understand history. Ciresi’s campaigning resembles Hatch’s to a much greater degree and he has a few campaign staffers who actually worked for Hatch in 2006. The difference is that Hatch had decades of existing relationships with the more veteran members of the party and various unions that he could rely on without having to do much work.
Ciresi can keep attacking Franken all he wants, but at the end of the day, it will be his name on the ballot not “not Franken.”
And at the end of the day, the guy getting sworn in to the Senate will be Norm Coleman.
“Psst. Mike. FYI, you’re a trail lawyer. Lots of people think that’s a less than honorable way to make a living. I’m fine with it– but glass houses buddy.”
Why in %$^@ing world would you spit up a GOP talking point like that? Trial Lawyers are the only thing regular folks got left to stand up against corporations when people are wronged (injured, killed or cheated). The government is not there in any kind of efficient or effective manner.
Once you get pass the 3% who get rich off of it, you’ll see that much of their work has resulted in public policy and legislation that was progressive and pro-individual over the corporations.
Sean, talk to your friends. You’ve got a few around you who are attorneys that would be appalled you said this.
Hate on Ciresi, big deal. Hate on the entire industry because you hate one, well that would be crazy and self destructive.
Franken bad.
Ciresi worst.
Coleman the worstisest.
Jack rules.
“Why in %$^@ing world would you spit up a GOP talking point like that?”
The irony of this comment is hopefully not lost on anyone.
Sean
I know Mike Hatch. Franken is no Mike Hatch (that’s a good thing)
I highly suspect Franken will be the nominee, and if my suspicion is correct, Coleman will be out of a job in 2008 (and that’s a good thing)
Might Franken lose his cool on the senate floor? Perhaps, and that too, I believe, would be a good thing.
BTW Marc — you wouldn’t happen to be a trial lawyer would you?
Sean
Why the hell do people feel the need to have a candidate “sell” them. doesn’t Ciresi have enough of a track record for you to make a judgment? The idea that a candidate should have to “work” for your support rather than you figuring out who is the best qualified candidate that represents your beliefs is more than a wee bit arrogant.
“Lets knock it off shall we and go about acting all Senatorial mmmkay?”
Pretty condescending towards a guy who has accomplished a good 100 times more than we ever will. You make it sound like that’s all he does. I imagine that’s because you spend too much time on MDE and the only time he mentions Ciresi is when Ciresi highlights a difference between the the two and MDE says he’s taking a snipe. But Ciresi is clearly trying to get across the positive things that he’s done (e.g. in his commercials), not how much of a jack-ass Franken is.
Personally, I find it difficult to talk about Franken without mentioning his stupidity. Maybe Ciresi has the same issue.
Paulsing has said it perfectly.
At some point, the Democrat candidate is going to have to lay his cards on the table.
When that happens what will we see?
Ciresi’s hand: “I’ve pocketed millions by sueing the holy living crap out of a lot of companies, and I have a whole closet full of custom tailored suits to prove it.”
Franken’s hand: “I pocketed a couple of million by playing ball with people that bilked a children’s charity…I f*cking hate Republicans and, oh, and I can tell fart jokes.”
JNP’s hand: “Big huggs and fat spliff’s for everyone”
Seriously. This line up is headed for the biggest train wreck we’ve seen come down the Democrat highway in a long, long time…and with past candidates like Matt Entenza, Roger Moe and of course Mike Hatch, that’s really saying something.
Shit, I’m a trial lawyer and that one slipped right by me.
Ya really got to give the ambulance chasers credit…”trial lawyer” is a very descriptive euphamism.
“Pay up and we won’t bleed you dry with a year long trial.”
“Pretty condescending towards a guy who has accomplished a good 100 times more than we ever will.”
Paulsing —
I’m talking about Ciresi’s run for Senate. You saying “Well, you can’t criticize his run for Senate because he did good things in the past!” makes no sense.
“You make it sound like that’s all he does.”
I provided two pretty clear examples here — if you’d like me to I can provide more.
“I imagine that’s because you spend too much time on MDE and the only time he mentions Ciresi is when Ciresi highlights a difference between the the two and MDE says he’s taking a snipe.”
When did people start to develop all these superpowers — first Mike can read minds and now you have psychic powers to analyze my internet usage.
Hrmmm. And again Paulsing, I provided two examples of Mike Ciresi doing the Republicans work for them, I can provide more.
But Ciresi is clearly trying to get across the positive things that he’s done (e.g. in his commercials), not how much of a jack-ass Franken is.
Mike had two great commercials and I was happy to put them up — but as even he said — what does that have to do with the delegates to the DFL convention? Ciresi has the ability to present a positive case for his nomination to the delegates — but he hasn’t recently. Like I said, I provided two examples and they aren’t unique.
Sean
“Shit, I’m a trial lawyer and that one slipped right by me.”
As I thought would have been obvious — I ain’t got no beef with trial lawyers, but before Mike Ciresi starts hammering Al Franken with conservative talking points he should give some thought to the easily exploited conservative talking points that can be used against him (and, for some reason that I just can put my finger on, haven’t been brought up by the GOP yet. Like C C Music Factory said: Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.)
Sean
I wonder if anyone has actually heard Mike Ciresi speak on more than one occasion?? I have and the guy is a policy wonk, that being a good thing. I talked to all three candidates after a debate and asked them how to make college affordable. Franken only said to make more grants available, didn’t say how and no other ideas came with it, he didn’t know what he was talking about. JNP had more liberal ideas, not just more loans but also flat tuition rates, a somewhat more thought out proposal and well spoken. Ciresi said not only loans, but a control on interest rates, and linking the issue to healthcare costs. He also said he serves on the Board of Regions for St. Thomas University so he has some EXPERIENCE in dealing with college costs. Franken has no sense of policy, and all he seems to be able to do is blame people for problems and not bring up any REAL solutions, he advocates universal healthcare, but how do we get there??? And in General election outlooks, what looks better, a New York Comedian that recently moved to Minnesota to run for senate that has a history of (nicely putting it) controversial remarks, or a trial lawyer that beat Big Tabbacco and has experience with dealing with healthcare and college costs??? put biases aside, which looks better?
Also, I know Steve Kelley, and Mike Ciresi is no Steve Kelley.
For once I want a candidate that I agree with on the issues and who seems to genuinely want to work for the people and the job. Like a lot of others, I didn’t think Franken would be that person. I was horrified of him getting the nomination. But not anymore. The same people that say Franken can’t win also say Obama can’t win because they won’t be able to stand up the right-wing slime machine. I tend to hope that Minnesotans will vote based on substance and if thats the case than Franken is a good choice, better than Ciresi.
The idea that a candidate should have to “work” for your support rather than you figuring out who is the best qualified candidate that represents your beliefs is more than a wee bit arrogant.
I disagree. the idea that a candidate shouldn’t have to work to get the support of the public is incredibly arrogant on their part and pretty stupid politically from a historical perspective.
What do you think campaigning is?
Sean:
That is a fair point. Being a trial lawyer IS a strike against Ciresi, and I remember that Skip Humphrey got no bounce at all from the Tobacco settlement. I’m all for talking about the strengths and the weaknesses for all the candidates.
Archer Dem:
“The same people that say Franken can’t win also say Obama can’t win because they won’t be able to stand up the right-wing slime machine.”
I am enthusiastically supporting Obama and can’t stand Franken, who to me is like the anti-Obama. I’ll leave it at that.
For the record i know and like Steve Kelley too, though they are clearly different, some similarities seem to surface.
I for one think Obama is more electable than Clinton so that was a wrong assumption. If obama had a history of saying controversial things, and moved in from Kenya to run for president then there might be an issue
Franken will likely lose this election because like it or not, up against Norm, this election will be about Al’s history which means we lose
We’re going to have a substance-free campaign this fall if Franken is the nominee.
By the way, commenters who want to talk about how Ciresi is more electable than Franken should at least mention the fact that polls have consistently shown them to do equally well vs. Coleman or, more recently, shown Franken doing better. I realize polls aren’t very meaningful now, but they’re more meaningful than hunches, aren’t they?
Let’s talk about electivity, other wise we’re just arguing over who should be at the helm and sail the good ship DFL into an iceberg. Franken is not electable- he’ll scare off gays and Minnesotans that believe in civilized campaigning and lose to Coleman by an even bigger margin than Hatch. Nelson-Pallmeyer supports returning to the 55 miles per hour speed limit on rural freeways- I dare anyone to conduct their own poll by cruising at 55 on rural stretches of 90, 94, or 35 to see how well Nelson Pallmeyer would fare in the general election. Mike Ciresi is a practical progressive, and thus the only candidate who can defeat Coleman by winning the votes of all democrats and indepedents.
Campaigning should be about presenting a candidates views and qualifications. Not pandering to each individual or group. Campaigning is currently more of a beauty pageant where a candidates qualities that are least relevant and their ability to lie without getting caught are king.
Whiney, whiney.
Mike Cerisi is going to cost us an election, if he’s the nominee.
He’s not that well known, despite the tobacco suit. He won’t get better known in the next month, at least not in a positive way.
Franken has been working hard.
Why again do we hear the nonsense BS about satire & comedian being a deficit?
All the presidential candidates, most especially on the right, have been trying to use humor in their appeal for a long time. So obviously they recognize its power.
All sorts of noise about “personal baggage - and history” tells us that the writer of such thinks Minnesotan Dems are stupid.
It ignores that Cerisi has no superlative positives to bring to the table which will resonate.
Of course we all know Repubs,
maybe even Brodkorb
will vote for Cerisi if he’s the candidate, right?
Franken brings a youth vote.
Sounds like the people ripping him, don’t know too much about him!!
Well Mockingbird maybe Republicans won’t vote for him but they don’t really matter any more than Democrats. It is the independent voter that decides elections. Many of us are primarily looking for candidates that are above all else honest and straight forward. Somebody who we believe will actually do what they say they will do and are smart enough to admit when they have been wrong. The same qualities that are important to us for people we do business with or count as our friends.
One way we make these judgments is on how a candidate has acted in the past and Franken’s past is mainly him being an asshole and lying for money. Ciresi at least has a few tangible accomplishments that Minnesotans can look to and appreciate. He is experienced with large legal issues and as well as the details to how law works. Franken knows how to make stoned people laugh. Ciresi was managing a legal team dealing with a nationally important case against one of the most established industries in American history and Franken was writing a book that’s main attraction was calling people names or being the main attraction in a bankrupt radio network.
Franken supporter have no more substance than their candidate. Their biggest selling point for Franken is how much Republicans dislike him and now that a Democrat is saying the same obvious things they get all grumpy. Ciresi may be a lawyer but at least he didn’t move to Minnesota just to run for Senate.
As a young voter, I resent the fact that because Franken is on the Ticket I will be more likely to vote for Him over Ciresi. What has Franken done for the youth???? Anything? Ciresi at least knows what he is talking about when it comes to making college affordable and strengthening the economy for working people. Franken may make a great joke and have a ton of money, but ask Rep. Mark Kennedy how his funny commercials and his several million dollar war chest got hi elected. Now before you jump on me I am not saying these 2 are the same, in fact very different, but no one can buy an election. Granted you need money to compete, but thats less than half the battle, you have to have the conviction of your ideals and something to bring to the table……and Franken brings nothing but a definite loss. Also if you are still concerned about the youth vote, I believe Mr. Obama will have quite an effect on bringing it out in the fall seeing as Hillary is pretty much out (Knock on wood) hehe
Why does Franken get the youth vote? Seriously, is there anyone under the age of the 30 who knows Franken for anything other than his political career? Stuart Saves His Family is not Terminator 3 or even Predator.
So, lets just bury our heads in the sand and not talk about Franken’s weaknesses. Let’s endorse the candidates that make us feel good, raise a lot of money, but have enough baggage and flaws, that Coleman becomes a two term US Senator.
Bravo! Bravo!
If he can’t take some vetting from Mike Ciresi and Jack Nelson Pallmeyer, how’s he going to stand up to the GOP machine? How long would it take for Franken to have a Mike Hatch moment?
Mike Ciresi has been going negative for sometime and I think it is a sign of desperation. As we see with the Obama campaign the real sign of success is excitement and energy from supporters. Ciresi supporters seem to take on the same tone as Mike whereas Franken supporters seem excited and energized about about him as a candidates.
I’ve been listening to video of dem senate debate (Mon. Feb. 11 in Int. Falls) for past 90 minutes and would be pleased to vote for any of the three candidates in Nov. I believe they are all sufficiently progressive and don’t pick my candidate based on issues. In fact my interest in issue specifics is so limited I have been watching MSNBC election returns and reading various blogs while I viewed this debate. I choose a leader more based on personality and experience. I find Franken boring and annoying to listen to as a candidate and his background is the least impressive of the three as well. Ciresi impresses me most with his big legal victories over corporations and I also find him most pleasant to listen to speak about the issues. Franken is the most well known and likely to get the dem endorsement, but I think he will lose to Norm for a variety of reasons. My mind is not completely made up, but right now I plan to vote for Ciresi at my sen. dist. convention.
I think Laurie summed it up nicely
“…Franken’s past is mainly him being an asshole and lying for money.”
Could not disagree with you more strongly.
“Franken knows how to make stoned people laugh.”
Well, if you say so. But, it’s nice to see you’re agreeing he’s funny.
“Franken supporter have no more substance than their candidate.”
Well, since we’re goin’ for the gratuitous cheap shot, I’ll play, too: “One definition of a libertarian is ‘a conservative with a bong’…”
Say, aren’t you a libertarian, KH?
For The Record: Anybody that does not think Al Franken is building a very serious grass-roots campaign, simply is not paying attention. Anybody that thinks Mike Ciresi is viable, when he cannot raise contributions, let alone cultivate delegates, is simply not paying attention.
Al Franken is building a machine, and it’s going to steamroll Norm “Smokescreen” Coleman, R=Lapdog.
TPT,
You are correct that I could have been more polite when describing Franken supporters. I maybe should have said “Franken supporters arguments seem to lack depth to the same degree that Franken does.”. I apologize for making it sound personal.
I do think though that you actually helped prove my point. I talked about some valid and important why I think Ciresi is a more qualified candidate than Franken and you responded one admitedly snarky line in my post.
Franken recent career was being the left wing Rush Limbaugh in that he is an entertainer delivering lines that please a narrow demographic so he could get paid. The fact that he was the grossly overpaid top draw at a bankrupt and corrupt organization doesn’t help my view of him either.
Franken may be a very good campaigner among the party faithful but that will not necessarily translate into general election success. Calling Republicans names and raising most of his money from out of state won’t ingratiate him to the independent voters who very likely have voted for a Republican or two in the past. His poor judgment on Iraq and his inability to provide a sincere constant and plausible reason for it are negatives as well. Being a good party campaigner does not mean Franken would be a good Senator.
And no, I am not a Libertarian. I agree with them on some but not all issues. I like my independence and the ability to work into both major parties to try and support the most transparent and honest candidates available. As far as Libertarians being Republicans with bongs, I’d say that would be without a doubt better than todays neocon brand of Republican. Go to my site if you are interested in my views, it’s new and a bit of a hodge-podge but you’ll get the idea.
http://headfuel.blogspot.com/
When I attended a Ciresi meet and greet event to hear him speak, he wasn’t negative about Franken. Alan Spear, who introduced him, was.
I think Ciresi’s history of accomplishment and getting things done is a strong point, and I could see him being a better legislator than Al Franken. I don’t know what Franken has done in the past that would make him an effective legislator.
However, Ciresi’s personality isn’t particularly warm. I think that hurts him on the stump. I personally don’t find Al Franken particularly engaging one on one. Most of this is because he talks more than listens. The most talented politicians are the ones who will listen, and take from what they have heard to build their message.
Coleman has good interpersonal skills when you meet him one on one. I don’t happen to believe what Coleman says because he says different things to different audiences.
Also when I observed the Stonewall DFL screenings, both candidates were negative about the other. During the discussion about the candidate performance, each candidate’s supporters were very negative about the other candidate.
The “change” candidate: Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer.
The “hope” candidate: Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer.
The truthful candidate: Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer.
The “issues” candidate: Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer.
The “nice guy” candidate: Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer.
The eloquent candidate: Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer.
The electable candidate: Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer.
The grassroots candidate: Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer.
The best-informed candidate: Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer.
The candidate who “gets it” and sees the connections: Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer.
In four short months, Jack’s grassroots campaign has turned this into a two-way race with a nationally known figure in an era that worships celebrity. In four short months, Jack’s grassroots campaign has forged a real possibility of endorsement with small contributions from middle-class and even poor contributors.
Jack’s support has been narrow but deep, but it is widening every day. Every single time Jack speaks, people intuitively understand what he could do in the Senate, and they know he has the will and the moral compass to do it.
Ask yourself a simple question: Can you honestly say that any person you know would actually make a better Senator than Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer? At some point, we need to stop betting on horse races and consider who we want to hire for this Senate job.
You can all do whatever handicapping you want, but I am personally much more interested in picking someone who understands the mess we are in and has some ideas about how to get us out.
I’m pretty surprised you haven’t gotten the story yet that Norm Coleman possibly faces a challenge from Rod Grams. The story was covered in the St Paul Pioneer Press - and that story was repeated on the Hill.
http://lloydletta.blogspot.com/2008/02/rod-grams-possibly-challenging-norm.html
http://lloydletta.blogspot.com/2008/02/will-rod-grams-challenge-norm-coleman.html
Eva seems to hit it pretty well, but my addition is in regards to her comment regarding Ciresi’s personality. She wasn’t saying that she cares, but that falls in line with a big problem that I have with Franken. According to many, he’s got that every-day attitude to him and that appeals to many. But frankly, I don’t care at all. People thought they could grab a beer with our current president, too. Few on this blog, from either party, think that turned out well.
I don’t want someone who I can be comfortable with - I want someone who is so much smarter and more motivted than I am that I have no idea what to say to them.
This is a seat in the United States Senate. These guys aren’t running for the position of Best Friend. One hundred people in three hundred million get elected to this club, which may be the most exclusive in the world. It is a sacred seat, and it to those who say “Ciresi hasn’t called me… he’s being mean to poo’ old Al … Al is funny and makes me laugh,” I think that you may not understand just want being a senator entails. It goes beyond us.
In very succinct terms, Cerisi is an empty suit. He has the personality of a walleye and no real qualifications for Senator. Im sorry to be negative but the guy lacks a personality. I know tat he is a respected progressive member of the DFL but he couldn’t campaign his way out of a paper bag.
He is the candidate of the DFL establishment and like all the “its’ my turn candidates” will lose this election.
The one thing that is bothering me is the lame accusation that Franken supporters are shallow and not making an informed decision. I have to admit those comments have pretty much decided for me the pointlessness of a Cerisi campaign supporter who can’t understand that at its’ most basic level you do not insult people when you are trying to get there support.
Deligate NOW decided on Frankin
And Sean, as far as your response to me up above is concerned, you either didn’t understand or just misrepresented my statement. You provided two examples and have more. That’s fine. I agree that he’s starting to contrast more.
My point is that you use a broad generalization about Ciresi based on a few comments he’s said. The title read “Ciresi attacks Franken. A lot,” and then you give two examples. The implication there is that his campaign is based against Franken, when it clearly is not. My earlier post was was in reference to the fact that he’s comparing his past performance as a trial lawyer to what he could do in his future as a senator. His tv ads say “I’ve done things,” not “Al Franken blah blah blah.”
That’s what I was trying to get across. He doesn’t “attack Al Franken to highlight his strengths,” as you claim in your original post. He uses his past to highlight his strengths, and then, at least in the forum, lays out very reasonable issues with Al Franken’s history.
Franken defenders always end their posts the same way. That their guy has “personality”….. Well I’d rather have somebody with ability to negotiate and do the job. Either that or a person who like JNP who obviously truly believes what he says. Franken has no functionally positive qualities other than his ability to campaign among die-hard Democrats.
Nobody in this entire thread has given any reason other than that to support Franken. Ciresi seems to me to be anything but an empty suit. A guy IN a suit, fine, but his accomplishments show that it is not empty.
That a Franken supporter gets their undies in a bunch because they feel challenged to come up with some real reasons he would make a good senator is laughable. Franken has spent his entire life doing nothing more than insulting people that don’t agree with him. That is why some people who do agree with him want to support him.
KH, I’m on the road - stoppin’ for a quick cuppa joe at Dunn Bros.
I support Al Franken because NO ONE understands veterans issues better than Al.
No offense to Sergeant Major Walz, but:
Al flat out understands issues.
When I told Al the story about my brother getting turned down for VA care as a Category 8 veteran - my brother had MS and really, Really, REALLY needed the VA - Al Franken KNEW all about this issue - when the misAdministration inflicted this abomination, etc etc etc.
And that’s just for starters.
Anybody that thinks political satire can be performed without understanding the issues, institutions, parties, etc etc etc isn’t really thinking.
Al is a serious student of Government; understands how government functions, and will perform admirably as a US Senator.
I could go on, but I gotta go see what the lemmings are postin’ on a different site; and then I gotta hit the road.
Charlie - I admire your passion, and your candidate. JNP would indeed make a fine Senator, but first he has to get the endorsement.
If JNP gets the endorsement, I am wildly and enthusiastically on-board.
TPT,
Thank you for the story about your brother. It is exactly the kind of thing I have been looking to hear. It may not be enough to convince me that Franken would be the best senator but it is a step in the right direction.
amuseinc-
Ciresi is not the “Establishment Candidate” or the “My Turn” Candidate, he is the one of the TRUE progressive voices in the race. Franken if anyone takes the titles listed above, he has apparently got the DFL elected officials behind him and decided last year to move back to Minnesota, prpbably not for the weather, but for the Senate Seat he had his eyes on from NY, NY.
Sean-
It is rather convienient the title of this post, “Ciresi attacks Franken. A lot”. Franken is the Frontrunner, without question, and for one of his supporters to be whining about a legitimate claim is rather absurd. I didn’t hear anything from you when Obama and Edwards were ganging up on Hillary last fall??? Is it just attacks when it is against your candidate?? You cannot have a double standard in politics, because it comes back to bite.
OK, Eva sent me off to read The Hill.
Here’s an interesting article that hints that TEAMWORK is a factor in being successful in Congress, interviewing freshman Congressman Keith Ellison of Minneapolis, who [Like Michele Bachmann?!] had a track record as a MN state legislator before being elected to U.S. Congress in 2006.
So have we got anyone that can step up and say that any of the U.S. Senate candidates are good team players? On the campaign trail, candidates look pretty much like Soloists.
So, step on up John Belushi, we’d like to hear from you!
Excerpt from:
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/dem-leaders-shower-pork-on-freshmen-2008-02-13.html
Keywords: helped … working closely with colleagues … shared … hard work . . .
Dem leaders shower pork on freshmen
By Alexander Bolton
Posted: 02/13/08 07:07 PM [ET]
“Democratic leaders have sent tens of millions of dollars to freshman lawmakers’ districts in hope of protecting the party’s newfound majority come November.
A new study of December’s omnibus spending package shows that the party in power has resisted pressure to abandon earmarking, at least to the extent of handing lawmakers in tough districts plenty of pet projects they can boast about to voters.
Democratic freshmen in the House were among the biggest recipients of earmarked funds, often surpassing much more senior colleagues by millions of dollars.
Republicans have made the practice of earmarking a major campaign theme and are likely to exploit the analysis done by the Taxpayers for Common Sense (TCS), a nonpartisan group that tracks federal spending. Even though several GOP members are among the biggest recipients of earmarked funds, for the first time in more than 10 years Democrats are collecting an overwhelming majority.
Take Rep. Phil Hare (D), a freshman from western Illinois. He received $92.2 million worth of earmarks, almost the same amount as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), according to the TCS analysis. The group compiled a database of every earmark passed in 2007.
Working with other lawmakers, Hare managed to attach his name to tens of thousands of dollars more in earmarks than Rep. Jim Oberstar (D-Minn.), chairman of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.
Freshman Rep. Keith Ellison (D-Minn.) helped secure $69.9 million worth of earmarks, surpassing senior members of the Appropriations Committee such as Reps. Alan Mollohan (D-W.Va.), Rosa DeLauro (D-Conn.), Frank Wolf (R-Va.) and even House Majority Whip James Clyburn (D-S.C.).
Ellison steered millions back to his district by working closely with colleagues. He shared all of his earmarks with other lawmakers, while senior appropriators such as Mollohan, DeLauro and Wolf secured millions under their name alone.
“I’m not an opponent of earmarks,” said Ellison, at a time when a growing number of lawmakers in both parties have declared a moratorium on them. The latest to do so is Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Calif.), chairman of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee. Waxman helped secure $12.9 million in projects last year.
Ellison defended his hefty accumulation, noting that the money would go to gunshot-detection technology, which helps police locate a shooting quickly, and to a program to help children in foster homes.
Ellison said that while many freshmen may receive help from Democratic leaders because they are politically vulnerable, hard work was the secret to his own success.
“It’s not always a factor of being blessed by the leadership,” said Ellison, noting that Sen. John Kerry (Mass.), the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee, won Ellison’s district with more than 70 percent of the vote.”
The fact remains that Cerisi is going to lose the nomination… big time. He has yet to offer a concrete reason or a supportable rationale as to why he is the better candidate. Running a law office, while quite impressive, is not enough justification to vote for him over a proven communicator like Al Frankin. Who do you want to be listening to for the next 6 years… a lawyer parsing sentances or Al Frankin telling you what he thinks is best for Minnesota?
amuseinc,
A Senator is not an entertainer. I really don’t care about how they might give me a chuckle over transportation block grants. You keep saying Ciresi’s experience at running a law firm, and managing one of the biggest cases in state history, doesn’t do it for you but have yet to articulate any reason Franken would be a better senator and not just more entertaining. How about some reasons that don’t include his ability to campaign, raise money or make you laugh. Unless you think communication style is the most important thing in which case I’d guess Reagan is a hero of yours.
So 2pud, you’re saying your brother’s MS is military related?
You have to excuse my incredulity, but even your pals at the Hopkins VFW agree anything that comes from the kind of lefty turd that mocks a guy that sacrificed both of his legs to fight for our country’s freedom and security just kind of demands an extra long look.
Just an FYI amuseinc, our current senator, Sen. Amy Klobuchar is a Lawyer as well…hmmm….food for thought.
Amuseinc, way to go, you illustrated my point exactly. You get all huffy and puffy about how I apparently insulted you by saying it’s not about us and then claim that, because what I said, you’re now supporting Al. Get the irony here?
It’s fine if you want to support him because of something Al said to you or Ciresi said to you, but you get offended when I, a nameless-nothing posting on a blog, say something.
Fine, vote Franken, because I’m guesing you were going to anyway. Franken will probably get the nomination but I’m going to make sure I have a Ciresi shirt so when November 6th rolls around I can wear it out after Coleman wins.
Franken in the Senate? I wouldn’t want to see it, but I’m positive I will never have to.
Wow…all of these posts trying to determine the 2nd best candidate for US Senate. Why not endorse our best candidate, and also the man with the integrity, intelligence and passion to beat Norm Coleman, Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer? Want a candidate who stands up for workers rights, fair, not free, trade, universal single payer health care, an end to the occupation of Iraq and the building of a green economy? Vote for Jack. Minnesotans deserve a campaign against Norm Coleman focused on the issues, not on a litany of witty, insightful, but ultimately divisive commentaries. And would you do me just one favor, everyone? Watch a debate with Al, Mike and Jack and then tell me who is most capable of filling the void that the death of Senator Wellstone has left behind? I miss Paul. Go Jack!
Get a (cheney)in’ life, NotSoSwiftly, and a (cheney)in’ dictionary too.
But, pull yer head out of your rectum, first.
“So 2pud, you’re saying your brother’s MS is military related?
That is NOT what I said, and if you weren’t such a partisan MORON, you’d know it.
But, there isn’t much you do “know”. “believe”, yes; “know”, no.
Putz.
Go (cheney) yourself, NotSoSwiftly. Nobody I know has ever mocked anyone who has sacrificed for this country.
“Facts are stupid things.”
Uncle Ronnie said it; NotSoSwiftly lives it.
Well 2pud, if you actually knew anything about the military you’d know that the VA is not responsible for non-military related health issues.
Sounds like Franken doesn’t know the ropes any better than you do pal…you’re two peas in a pod.
If your brother is really a Cat8, combat wounded vet (as I’ve said, even the guys at the Hopkins VFW tell me not to take anything you say too seriously) I’d suggest a fundraiser for your brother, but I know that you believe that is begging. So, maybe you could step up and help him out yourself, or are you just shooting off your big mouth…a-gain?
NotSoSwiftly:
You should post often, because you prove republiCons don’t know what the (cheney) they’re talking about.
And I never said my brother was a Cat8, combat wounded vet.
You extremist rightwingnuts prove, each and every day, that reasonable people cannot trust rightwingnuts to tell the truth.
This is healthy. Once you get past the Democratic love-fest and Franken has to actually answer questions in the general, the questions he gets from Coleman as well as the general voter on things he has said in the past should be no surprise to anyone.
Swiftee, I think you need a vacation from diapers as it seems you’ve become obsessed with lefty turds.
2Pud said his brother HAD MS. Past tense does not mean that he was cured, but that he is deceased.
So a fund raiser is really not a helpful suggestion, unless you know how to raise the kind of funds that can bring people back to life.
While the VA may not be ‘responsible’ for non-service related health issues, they will treat them, and bill the patient’s insurance provider (many of which deny the claim for being ‘out of network provider’).
But a veteran does not get in the door if they don’t ‘qualify’ since the Bush administration closed enrollment and instituted ‘means testing.’
How ‘bout we Minnesotans send a new Senator to Washington that helps legislate universal health care for all of us?
Qualifying for health care seems like something sick people should not have to do . . .
Qualifying for health care seems like something sick people should not have to do . . .
Depends on the goal of the health care system. If your system is in place to maximize the profits of insurance companies, then means testing makes perfect sense.
And if your goal is to remove as much choice and freedom from the system as possible, Single Payer is the answer.
Really Dan, I would’ve guessed as a business executive, you would’ve known that the present system requires many of us to use preferred providers, and the treatments we recieve need to be approved by the insurance company. I can’t afford the meds my doc would like me to take, to keep my blood from turning into butter, so I take meds that are close, but don’t do as effective a job. There’s your choice and and freedom. Why don’t you just say, “Let them eat cake.” and be done with it. The landed gentry in this country really need to get a clue.
I think John Marty says it best. Again Jack, the only one in the race who supports this.
John Marty: Is health care a commodity or a neccesity?
Most proposals treat it as something to be bought and sold, but really, it’s a community need. Consider a common-sense analogy.
By JOHN MARTY
Politicians of both parties have been tinkering with health-insurance reforms for years, but that’s not solving the problem.
Before deciding how to move ahead, we should recognize that there is a big philosophical divide about how to proceed: Is health care a commodity or a community need?
Many politicians view it as a commodity — something that is bought and sold in the marketplace. “Bought,” that is, to the extent you can afford it. However, if you believe that all people deserve access to affordable health care, as two-thirds of Americans do believe, then there is a problem. Many people don’t earn enough to buy health care.
Most health proposals from politicians reflect this commodity approach. They reason that if people cannot afford health care, government should subsidize the coverage or allow insurance plans to cover fewer medical services to save money. To achieve universal health coverage, these proposals would require residents to buy insurance. In Massachusetts, this proposal has become law, but even with that requirement, Massachusetts has a target of only 95 percent insured.
Equally troubling, Minnesotans who have insurance still face astronomical health costs, and they would get little relief from this type of reform.
As an alternative, we could treat health care as a community need, something everybody needs and everyone gets — just like police and fire protection.
If you call the police because your home is being burglarized, the police dispatcher doesn’t ask whether you have police insurance and what plan you have. He or she doesn’t waste time and money having you fill out forms so your insurance company can be billed. The police response does not depend on your insurance status. Everyone is treated equally. It’s the American way.
If health care were treated as a community need, when you were sick you would get the care you needed. And you would get sick less often, because you would receive preventive care and health education to assist you in taking responsibility for your health. As with police and fire protection, we all would pay for it, and we all would benefit from it.
Our current commodity health-care system leaves many people without access to needed care. In contrast, other western, industrialized nations cover everyone for all medical needs. That’s why people in those countries have longer life expectancies and lower infant mortality rates.
In reality, everyone in Minnesota eventually gets health care. If people can’t afford treatment, we wait until they are really sick, then we pay for more costly hospitalization and emergency-room care. We end up paying more because people don’t have health care up front. We don’t focus on prevention. And with our incredibly complex insurance system, about 30 cents of every health-care dollar we spend goes to administrative costs. That is why Americans pay at least 50 percent more for health care than those other nations pay.
Many middle-income families have insurance but are still only one serious illness away from bankruptcy. Our businesses, schools and government face skyrocketing health-care costs.
It is time for Minnesota to make sure that every Minnesotan has access to the health care that they need. By treating health care as a community need, not as an optional commodity, we will live healthier lives and save money, too.
John Marty, DFL-Roseville, is chairman of the Minnesota Senate Health Committee and author of legislation to create a Minnesota Health Plan.
Andrew, the dicision has been made, it’s only the details to be worked out.
Oh - and the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the rightwinguts screaming “SOCIALISM!!!” is yet to be endured.
Case in point: GM shifting retiree benefits from it, to the Union. Any guesses for how long? Any guesses until Ford does the same? Every other company with a union?
I got a neighbor, owner of a widget company that uses wood. He’s now come to the point, as his company is self-insured for health, to asking why his company has to be in the business of providing health insurance to his employees, while his competition in Candada does not.
And he’d not alone.
When the business executives are questioning why they are doing something, and seeing other businesses getting out, it’s only a matter of time until all get out.
Which is something rightwingnuts refuses to recognize.
Y’all make a bad assumption here: That anyone who is against Single Payer is for the current employer-based health system. Its either your way or the wrong way. Have an open mind.
I think everyone has access to healthcare today, but as has been pointed out it often comes in the terribly inefficient form of an ER. No disagreement there. So why not just have a taxpayer-funded healthcare system for all?
Here is my issue with Single Payer. Tell me from this list what services should be covered by our taxpayer-based Single Payer system:
- Broken Arms?
- Cancer treatment?
- Cancer screening for at-risk patients?
- Cancer screening for hypochonriacs?
- Pregnancy and childbirth
- Two well-baby visits per year
- Four well-baby visits per year
- Twenty well-baby visits per year
- EKG for someone with chest pains
- End-of-life respirator
- Botox shots
- Hair transplants for a balding man
- Hair transplants for a balding woman
- Skin grafts for a burn victim
- Birthmark removal for an otherwise healthy person
My point is, someone will ration. Today, the rationing is done by your employer, their health plan, or if you are over 65 by Medicare. With Single Payer, our Government will ration. Either a Congressman, an actuary in a DC office, or someone at a field office will decide what care you get. Who should ration?
I say the individual and their doctor should ration. Our system needs to be based on individually held insurance, with a system that is as affordable and transparent as car insurance. You can decide if you want the full plan or the high deductible plan. You can decide if you want an in-network list of doctors that has 20% of your areas providers or 100%. If you cannot afford one of these plans, a voucher should be avaialble to you for up to 100% of the cost of the plan, depending on your income.
And why could a single payer plan NOT have different levels of benefits and member contributions?
Copper, Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum.
Copper [bottom level] would get basic care, including Botox treatments that have therapeutic health benefits. Platinum [highest level] could include Botox treatments that are for cosmetic reasons.
That starts to sound alot like the individually-directed health system that I favor. Except that the Government-run system would be the largest monopoly known to the history of this country, only they don’t call it a monopoloy when the government is the offending party.
For the record, I would actually support a Government-organized risk pool that people could buy into. It could have different tiers as you suggested. My conditions would be that:
1. It was solvent (don’t create another Medicare nightmare)
2. It could be done with no tax increase (the money is in the system, we just need to route it better)
3. It was OPTIONAL
4. It did NOT prohibit private industry from continuing to offer tailored insurance or medical services for those willing to pay (the black market in canadian healthcare is alive and well — let’s not create black markets)
Ultimately, who would you rather have supporting you in the Senate?
-a lifelong Minnesotan with a sterling reputation for taking on giant corporations and helping people who have been wronged, who has spoken out against the War in Iraq from the beginning, who has closely dealt with the issues of higher education, whose foundations have given millions of dollars to the less fortunate in our state, who believes that economic relief for the middle class will help both the middle and lower classes in our country, who has experience working with foreign governments (Bhopal case), and a strong history as a progressive who stacks up well against Norm Coleman.
-or-
-a New Yorker who grew up here, moved away, decided to come back and spend his way into contention, who is known all over the nation as a vulgar, controversial individual with no practical experience with the issues. The man was Stuart Smalley!
Ultiamtely, Mike’s vison for the state and his track record of being an asset to this community along with his commitment to the people of this state and the progressive goals of the DFL are what makes him the best candidate for Senate.
By the way, did anybody care that his “attacks” were true??? Just curious.