Retribution?

by Zack Stephenson | 49 Comments

Now that the Governor’s veto has been overridden, the question is what the fall out will be. Will the MN GOP 6 be excommunicated? Is Kathy Tingelstad still a Republican? We’ll let you know as soon as we find out.

February 25, 2008, 4:24 pm | Category: General |

49 Responses to “Retribution?”

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  • Disco
    February 25, 2008 at 5:05 pm

    FINALLY a populist victory. I don’t know how far out of our massive hole we can climb with this, but it’s a big symbolic victory.

    The roads here suck and it’s time someone took charge of the situation, since it is overwhelmingly clear that the governor has no plans to do so.

  • Disco
    February 25, 2008 at 5:08 pm

    I also have to admire the courage of the GOP 6. I know it takes some real guts to do what they did, especially after the stern talking-to they received from “TPaw.”

    They stood up to the bully. Their actions are commendable.

  • Typical Frightened Right Wing Guy
    February 25, 2008 at 5:52 pm

    We MUST cut taxes as much as possible at all times, as long as it’s not property taxes.

    Everyone knows this legislation will be the biggest tax increase in Minnesota history.

    Why don’t the Liberal elites and their army of trial lawyers understand that tax cuts solve problems,not tax increases?

    I’ll just post some links that prove me right if you DemocRats don’t get it.

    That’s not a great job, DFL.

  • Kerosene Hat
    February 25, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    So Disco you consider the states biggest ever tax increase that is also incredibly regressive and was pushed through despite being unpopular among the people a populist victory?

    As the DFL gloats you might want to consider why this happened like it did. Consider what this means for the next election cycle. Republicans can point to how the DFL increased taxes on the middle and lower income brackets despite saying they saw no need to increase revenue before the last election. That there will be no improvements in transportation for many years because the DFL does not find transportation worthy of bonding despite the large list of other bonding projects. Pawlenty and other Republicans can talk about how the DFL pushed through their agenda without compromise and had always been lying about their willingness to negotiate. Republicans can say that they would have been fine with a small gas tax increase along with bonding but that the Democrats demanded massive tax increases on working folk. Pawlenty is a smart enough politician to think a few steps ahead, Pogey and MAK are not.

    Sure the DFL got their bill passed but it was a bad bill that is quite unpopular. The moderates and independents that decide the elections in close districts will realize this and make the DFL pay for it. In the mean time the working class has their taxes increased and will see little to no improvement in their transportation needs.

  • Blogger
    February 25, 2008 at 6:06 pm

    “They stood up to the bully. Their actions are commendable.”

    I hope you have the same respect for the six when, later in the session, they follow their principles again, only on a vote that you disagree with.

    I agree that the six were speaking for their constituents and following their conscience. I’m guessing that they didn’t like raising taxes, but they felt that our transportation system needed the money so badly that on balance, it was the better alternative.

    I happen to agree with them. And I will agree with them when, later this session, they insist on cutting wasteful spending instead of increasing income taxes to close any gap created by the recession.

  • Kollege Kid
    February 25, 2008 at 6:33 pm

    KH,

    A BRIDGE COLLAPSED! Our transportation system sucks so bad that a BRIDGE FELL INTO THE MISSISSIPPI. Doesn’t that concern you in the least?

    Besides that, roads across the state need work, especially in southern Minnesota. Do you seriously think the GOP is going to come after the DFL for trying to fix that? Please, all the DFL needs to do is to point out that the GOP voted against fixing bridges across the state.

  • DantheMan
    February 25, 2008 at 6:41 pm

    Fine and dandy that this bill passed. Upgrade the roads. What’s done is done.

    But here is the real question: Why is Minnesota, with the 7th overall tax burden in the state (before this tax hike), scrapping for cash to fix roads??

    Where is it all going???

    #7 in the nation, soon to rise to the Top 5, and there isn’t enough money to keep up our roads?

    Where is it all going???

  • Kathy
    February 25, 2008 at 6:44 pm

    MNGOP Chair Ron Carey promised to go after those Republicans who voted for this Bill as well as the DFLers who took seats from GOP held Districts over the last 4 years.

    What a great Chair he is to want to do that. He has done more to lose Republicans elections through his bully tactics, I will cheer him on for more GOP losses.

  • Typical Frightened Right Wing Guy
    February 25, 2008 at 6:45 pm

    The tax burden is hardest felt by wealthy people.

    Why don’t you DemocRats understand?

  • Kathy
    February 25, 2008 at 6:48 pm

    Plus, it is one thing to borrow money for a short term, quick fix.

    But it has been Gov. Pawlenty’s style of governing to keep borrowing for the long term that will eventually cause increases in Taxes later on. Kinda of like Payday advances.

  • DantheMan
    February 25, 2008 at 6:49 pm

    “The tax burden is hardest felt by wealthy people.”

    Change to:

    -The tax burden is hardest felt by the very knowledge workers we are trying to attract.-

    Or:

    -The tax burden of today’s action is hardest felt by low and middle income families.-

  • Kerosene Hat
    February 25, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    KK,

    I have always said I think a gas tax increase was a good idea. That is not all this bill was about. If DFLers were concerned with immediate needs they would have supported a certain amount of bonding with a gas tax increase. The revenue from the regressive taxes the DFL has implemented won’t help fix shit for years. The DFL could say that Republicans voted against fixing bridges but it would be a lie. Bonding, like it or not would have addressed the problems much more quickly.

    Yes I know a bridge collapsed, I live about two miles from it and it has made getting anywhere a pain in the ass for me. That does not change the fact that this bill is poorly designed. Simply doing something doesn’t mean the problem is being solved. You have to do the right thing. The DFL could have had a true bipartisan bill that included bonding to address critical current needs and a gas tax increase to pay for those bonds and any new construction. They chose to pass a bad bill simply because they wanted to look tough. Instead they look stupid.

  • Typical Frightened Right Wing Guy
    February 25, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    Revenues are up, Kathy.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/13/business/13deficit.html?pagewanted=print

  • DantheMan
    February 25, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    “Plus, it is one thing to borrow money for a short term, quick fix.

    But it has been Gov. Pawlenty’s style of governing to keep borrowing for the long term”

    Uhh…. your logic would be the opposite of any liberal or conservative econ prof at the U or anywhere else.

  • Kathy
    February 25, 2008 at 6:59 pm

    That article was dated July of 2005, nice try!!! TFRWG

  • DantheMan
    February 25, 2008 at 7:05 pm

    THIS WAS A VICTORY!! (for the road construction lobby at the Minnesota capitol).

    I’m guessing several lobbyist will be seeing their incentive bonus in next month’s check.

  • Andrew
    February 25, 2008 at 7:27 pm

    WOOOOO!!!! I just got back from Boston a week ago and I rode their subway I think about 10 round trips. I cant wait til I can do that with the light rail.

  • lojasmo
    February 25, 2008 at 7:34 pm

    Great news.

    We haven’t had a gas tax increase in about 30 years. Relatively speaking, this will not be an undue hardship to anybody.

    Certainly, the roads need improvement.

  • Your Mom
    February 25, 2008 at 7:46 pm

    Dear Kerosene Hat,

    Just wanted to point out that there was actually 1.8 BILLION dollars of BONDING in the DFL Transportation package.
    1.8 BILLION.
    Dollars.
    in bonding.

    INCLUDING, a way to pay for the debt service. Maybe one of y’all should actually try to read the bills before you act like you know everything about it. (wow. that felt good to say)

  • Hobo Joe
    February 25, 2008 at 7:49 pm

    “WOOOOO!!!! I just got back from Boston a week ago and I rode their subway I think about 10 round trips. I cant wait til I can do that with the light rail.”

    I can’t wait either! Woooowooooo!

    When all da jobs is gone, and da govmint takes da houses to pay da taxes, evra buddy gonna ride dem rails all day long!

    Free healthcare, free all-day train trips and free guvmint cheese…the left’s dream come true…sweet.

  • Kathy
    February 25, 2008 at 7:54 pm

    The Minnesota Chamber of Commerce was for this Bill, Dan The Man. Who makes up the Chamber? People in Business.

  • DantheMan
    February 25, 2008 at 8:03 pm

    here is what I said on this blog a week ago, and I stand by it:

    “I think the gas tax is a no-brainer, should be passed, and should have been passed at least a year ago.

    I think the metro-wide sales tax should be decided by a metro-wide referendum. If the people say do it, I can live with that.

    I’m thankful that the legislature didn’t just default to the tired position of piling the additional cost on the higher income families. I thank them for making this more user based, and could live with it all if there was a referendum on the sales tax piece.”

  • Demure One
    February 25, 2008 at 8:20 pm

    I wonder if legislators are finally catching on that Pawlenty envisions himself in D.C. — he isn’t planning on sticking around Minnesota and seeing infrastructure erode. I doubt he will be picked for VP - but he would probably like a nice cabinet position. Perhaps energy - then he could keep pushing ethanol and “clean coal”

  • DantheMan
    February 25, 2008 at 8:37 pm

    Hmmm…

    “We legislatures are not going to support Pawlenty anymore because he is amibitious and might get a DC job next year”

    I sure hope we can give them all more credit than that.

  • Ruthie
    February 25, 2008 at 9:57 pm

    Hey Hobo Jo-and take time from the train rides to smell the clean air dem Liberals will make sure stay clean, fish clean rivers dem Liberals will make sure stay clean, and stop and smell dem roses ‘cause we want a good life for everybody, even you, snarky one…

  • Ron
    February 25, 2008 at 10:11 pm

    Mom, thanks for your comments. Call me back when you get a chance.

  • Disco
    February 25, 2008 at 10:42 pm

    The reason it’s a big tax increase is because we haven’t seen one in 20 years.

    Imagine if you hadn’t got a raise in 20 years, then all of a sudden, you were given 25%. Wow, that’s a huge raise. But wait…my wages have been stagnant for two decades. Maybe it’s not that big after all.

    Second, I’m skeptical of any long-term damage to the DFL as a result of this bill. People everywhere are still pretty sick of Republicans running the show (especially on the federal level). The anti-R sentiment will get lots of Democrats to the polls in November. If Obama wins the endorsement, that will excite voters, and this necessary tax hike will be forgotten.

    Besides…you want good roads, you gotta pay for em. They don’t grow on trees.

  • Blogger
    February 25, 2008 at 11:04 pm

    Sadly what happens in cases like this is the opposite of moderation. It drives more extremes.

    This was a heated debate and a one-vote margin. Polls done in three of the Republican “yes” voters’ districts suggest that 60% of voters disagreed with their representatives’ votes. In the case of Tinglestad, the local republicans have already tabled her endorsement for re-electtion as they consider if there is a better (more conservative) candidate.

    These are not purple districts; they are red. So, in 2009, instead of having one of these six moderates at the House, they may very well send a more conservative republican who toes the party line. The contest will not be in the general, it will be in the primary.

    That is the sad reality of politics. The moderates are being driven out. This time it is the Republicans, but it is happening on both sides of the aisle.

  • Your Mom
    February 25, 2008 at 11:17 pm

    I would like to know when a “good time” to raise taxes would be. According to many, because we are close to recession, it is not. But when we have a surplus would it be? When is that “special time.”

    Not everyone understands how government funding works, and so their initial reaction is NO! I don’t want to pay more. Asking people if they want to pay taxes for a core government function, is like asking a child if they want to eat broccoli. The answer is no. But if you say, would you eat your broccoli if you could have a banana split after?
    Same with taxes.. do you want to pay more, or pay them at all? No. Would you like us to fix roads and pay for schools? That’s a different question. (that’s not even a banana split, it’s more like a dish of plain vanilla)

  • Disco
    February 25, 2008 at 11:20 pm

    Blogger: like I’ve said before, there are people in the world — many in Minnesota apparently — who would rather die on a bridge than pay one more nickel in taxes.

  • Chris
    February 25, 2008 at 11:55 pm

    This is a terrible day for Minnesota. Your DFL (along with 6 stupid Republicans) just passed the largest tax increase in the state’s history and it was even a regressive tax. For all of you clamoring for more light rail, just remember that it costs $80 million a mile and that only 37% of its operating costs are paid by the people who ride the damned thing - that’s according to KARE 11’s report about light rail tonight. Minnesotans will see the sticker shock and hold those accountable especially when the money gets pissed away as it almost certainly will.

  • Dan
    February 26, 2008 at 12:10 am

    This is a great day for Minnesota! Choo Choo!!!

  • Hobo Joe
    February 26, 2008 at 8:53 am

    Yeah Ruthie, you right.

    We all gonna thank the big L when we gets a nice fat catfish to go wit our beans; and when we drinks dat cool, cool water right out of da stream we sleepin’ by we all gonna say Oh Lawdy we lucky to have da big guvmint hepin’ us.

    At nite, we all gonna look up into dat clean, clear sky and think maybe we don’t even wanna go look for no cardboard to cover up wit after all.

    Den, we all gonna wake up when dat choo choo train comes by to fill our day wit another nice ride.

    Gonna be da gooood life in liberal land!

  • Blogger
    February 26, 2008 at 9:08 am

    I’m not a Democrat. But I am going on the record as saying that this gas tax should have been indexed to inflation.

    When you index something to inflation, you take away the future argument of “we haven’t adjusted this tax in XX years” or “we’re living with the funding level from 20 years ago”. It would automatically adjust, so any call for a future increase would be one of spending above and beyond historical levels, rather than this whole notion of playing catch-up.

    The same should be done with minimum wage. Then, every 4-8 years, raising minimum wage wouldn’t become a political football.

  • Sean
    February 26, 2008 at 9:46 am

    Swiftee — you wouldn’t happen to be using yet another nom de plume would you?

    Knock it off before people start to comment at how your “Hobo Joe” sounds remarkably like a minstrelish caricature of an African American.

    Sean

  • Chris
    February 26, 2008 at 9:51 am

    Blogger,

    Your perspective is all wrong. Twenty years ago our gas tax was among the highest in the entire nation. It stayed among the highest in the nation for more than 15 years before other states began raising their gas taxes. Now we’re in the middle of the pack. The point is that while we had such a high gas tax, the state legislature squandered the money by failing to build roads and bridges where they were needed — if at all.

  • MRW
    February 26, 2008 at 10:17 am

    What I found interesting is that of the 8 Repubs who voted to over-ride, four of them represented rural districts: Reps Hamilton and Heirgarkten(sp!), and Sens Dille and Frederickson. So it was not just suburban legislators that tipped the balance. The two senators are safe for another two years. But the question still remains, will Reps Abeler, Tinglestad, Peterson, et al be subject to a non-endorsement or even a primary challenge. When you get right down to it, both of those actions happen quite rarely in Minnesota politics.

  • Virtually Speakinig
    February 26, 2008 at 10:45 am

    MPR reporting yesterday indicated the committee assignments of the ‘Rebellious Republicans’ could be changed, and also reported that Rod Hamilton had resigned his seat on the Agriculture (and Veterans) Committee. Kathy Tingelstad is Vice Chair of the Veterans Division, in one of those rare leadership roles given to Republicans last year when the DFL took over leadership of the House. Or she was last week anyway . . .

    Ron Carey was at the Capitol yesterday, detailing the consequences of failure to vote the party line for those that wanted to hear it.

    Heidgerken was elected in 2002, and has survived several years of not being on speaking terms with the House Speaker when he was ostracized by Steve Sviggum for his ‘rebellious nature.’

    This ‘character test’ coming right before most county and district party nominating conventions will show if Minnesota’s political activists favor their tightly-held nickels over their road safety.

    Joe Lieberman, U.S. senator of CT, has showed us that an incumbent can get re-elected as an Independent if their party fails to endorse them when they stand apart from their party based on principle and issue.

    I think the media coverage given to legislators that Stand Like a Rock on their principles can be more powerful than any paid advertising, especially to voters that are tired of partisan battles.

    ‘Vote DFL,’ said House Minority Leader Marty Seifert on the House floor yesterday. Yes, he had an ‘IF’ qualifier with that, but I’ve forgotten what it was. If the Republican Party of MN refuses to endorse ‘Rebellious Republicans’ running for re-election, and fails to provide them with financial backing that the party has little of, then they might just drive some of their most effective legislators to change parties, or run as independents and join the DFL Caucus. With ‘friends’ that punish their members for refusing to vote the party line [this in a Democratic government, not Castro’s Cuba or Putin’s Russia], who wants to stick with the Republican Party when their ship is listing and taking on water?

    If any legislator sacrificed their career over this vote, then at least they can know it was for a noble cause. Hwy 60 in Rod Hamilton’s district in SW MN is probably the number one spot for traffic fatalities every year that he’s been in office [since 2005]. If you’re going to sacrifice your elective office over a cause, eliminating, preventing, or minimizing traffic fatalities is one of the best, and history should pay homage to you, even if your constituents don’t appreciate you in the present.

    And that poll done by ‘GOP activists’ in 3 districts? Who’s seen the particulars on that? Was it random? Or did they call their lists of GOP activists that are delegates to the GOP endorsing conventions?

  • Your Mom
    February 26, 2008 at 10:59 am

    Chris,
    Just a slight correction to your perspective.. The legislature does not “spend” the money. It appropriates it. The Dept of Transportation spends the money, does the planning and prioritizing of the projects. This is an agency under the executive branch, aka, the Governor. If you want to blame anyone for inaction, and wrong priorities and ‘squandering’ money, blame the GOV.

    Blogger is right. And BTW, the original bill did have indexing in it, but in the spirit of compromise to bring more people to the table, they took that part out. Indexing is a fabulous idea. It makes so much sense. Notice how much better the roads are in WI? Thank indexing the gas tax for that. (Even though they just suspended it)

  • Your Mom
    February 26, 2008 at 11:09 am

    Virtually Speaking,
    The “if” you are talking about from Seifert, was to vote DFL IF we see a reduction in property taxes because of the the transportation bill.
    Tingestad won’t lose her vice chair status, Erhardt is vice chair of the Trans Finance Committee, too. Those vice chair positions are appointed by the Speaker. The lead republican status is what can be taken away. Tinglestad I believe is lead on the Cap Investment committee. She may loose that…

    All of the Republicans who voted to override the governor should be commended for their political courage. They are all going to take major hits from their party for what they did.

  • DantheMan
    February 26, 2008 at 11:57 am

    ” If the Republican Party of MN refuses to endorse ‘Rebellious Republicans’ running for re-election, …. then they might just drive some of their most effective legislators to change parties, or run as independents and join the DFL Caucus.”

    Just because Abeler or Heidgerken voted for a gas tax increase doesn’t mean they suddenly favor higher levels of social welfare or raising income taxes. I’m not sure a guy who jump to a different party over just one vote.

    The example of Leiberman is an apt one, though. For someone who is a rock star in their district, they can probably win as an Independent if need be.

  • Hobo Joe
    February 26, 2008 at 12:30 pm

    Indexing is a great idea, yes indeedee-do.

    When da all-knowing, all caring L sees got some more of dose sweet, sweet money dollars, they can get indexed straight into da guvmint treasury. Den da L won’t have to interrupt our choo-choo train rides askin’ us to hand it over!

    Free train rides, free health care, free guvmint cheese, free campin’ and fishin’ and now banking free livin’, man we are lucky to have them L’s around!

  • John S
    February 26, 2008 at 12:48 pm

    Tinglestad is reasonablely Green. As is Abeler. And I doubt either of them appreciated the thugery of Seifert’s and Ron Carey’s tactics in the run up to the vote. Both the Hamilton and Heidegerkon are rural, and more old line Republicans. Ron Erhardt’s an IR from the days before y’all started jumping whenever Grover Norquist said toad. And Neil Peterson is from a district whose political demographics are shifting.

    And besides, job-killing? Growth-killing? Yep, those lefty communists in the Chamber of Commerce are at it again! I’d like to thank all of our posters for high lighting the diabolical socialist agenda of the Minnesota Chamber of Commerce. More seriously, I’ll say that when the C of C and Phyllis Kahn are on the same side of an issue, its likely as commen sense as gravity.

  • Typical Frightened Right Wing Guy
    February 26, 2008 at 12:49 pm

    Hobo Joe Swift,

    Way to take down these DummocRats!

    You should add some more moonbats to your “moonbats taken down” section of your blog, because of your recent posts’ effectiveness.

    Great job!

  • Blogger
    February 26, 2008 at 1:21 pm

    My point on indexing is that if a tax burden is acceptable today, it should be acceptable if it increases in line with inflation.

    And in the end, it would be to the benefit of the entire discussion. Instead of Democrats resorting to the old line of “the levels are outdated — they haven’t been updated in years — we’re falling behind” as is the case with many taxes or the minimum wage, they would have to argue a different point. The point, if things were indexed to inflation, would be “we need to take a higher proportion of Minnesota households’ income to makke this program larger / create more infrastucture, etc.”

    I think it would be much more difficult for them to make the latter point than the former one. It would also make for a much more informed debate.

  • Hobo Joe
    February 26, 2008 at 5:08 pm

    Taxes are only a burden when you have something to tax.

    Now that the L is in charge of the state guvmint, they gonna relieve us of that burden by relieving us of everything we think we need and replacing it with free everathin’ fer evrabody!

    An jus wait till the L takes a seat in the BIG guvmint in warshton, man oh man it’s gonna be sweet when we got nothing to worry bout no more. We jus gonna live off the fat a da lan an ride dem free rails all day long.

  • Max
    February 27, 2008 at 12:01 am

    KH said, “was pushed through despite being unpopular among the people a populist victory?”

    Where are your stats to back this up? Everyone I know believes we need more money for transportation and understands that they have to pay more for it? Please point to the polls that say people didn’t want this bill.

  • Max
    February 27, 2008 at 12:03 am

    “Swiftee– you wouldn’t happen to be using yet another nom de plume would you?

    Knock it off before people start to comment at how your “Hobo Joe” sounds remarkably like a minstrelish caricature of an African American.

    Sean”

    Sean - unfortunately, swiftee wouldn’t see anything wrong with that…

  • Virtually Speakinig
    February 27, 2008 at 1:30 am

    Mom is right on the Vice Chair appointments coming from the Speaker, so the Caucus cannot change those, only the Leads.

    While a legislator may not change parties over one vote, the ‘fallout’ of that vote may lead a legislator down that path.

    If changing parties can get you a Vice Chair, or Chair position in your committee of choice, vice the least desired committee assignments, I think some legislators could give consideration to it.

    More likely might be running as an Independent and caucusing with the DFL to get the good committee assignments.

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