A senior DFL operative I spoke to this morning validated the annecdotal evidence in our comments section: last night was a big night for the Franken campaign.
The operative I spoke to said that if there had been a statewide strawpoll last night, “the race would be over this morning.” In fact, several precincts did hold straw polls last night, and we will report those results as soon as they are made available to us.
The Franken campaign, while refusing to confirm the numbers we have been hearing, was certainly all smiles this morning.
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In my Crocus Hill Precinct, we chose to subcaucus by Senate candidate to determine delegates to the SD convention.
Proportional Delegates:
Franken - 19
Cirisi - 4
Jack NP - 4
Uncommitted - 8
In Eagan, Franken over Cerisi by a little over 3-1 margin in my pct straw poll. No votes for JNP. Very similar results in other precincts. Citizens are fired up about Al!
I think that “landslide” is a bit much, more of a function of who you attract as a website. Quit trying to be a pundit and stop our process, you sound like a FOX news announcer. No “binding” votes, it is not done until it is done. While Frankin seemed to lead, the pattern changed across many precincts.
The biggest caucus in our area, Macalaster, that actually subcaucussed went for JNP.
Grace — I respect all of the hard work you put into the DFL but if the anecdotal evidence from my SD is to be believed and what I saw at my own caucus where I was chairing, Al Franken scored a landslide last night.
Not all blogs are the same Grace — as an extension of our big tent philosophy liberal and DFL leaning blogs can have different values and objectives (I’d like to think that we all share the main objective of getting Democrats elected) simply because we don’t write the same stuff you do doesn’t give you a lot of reason, or any at all to judge us in such a petty way. Sean
Did JNP do well anywhere outside Minneapolis and St. Paul? Did Ciresi do well anywhere at all?
Grace -
I call it as I see it. I have heard no evidence of JNP wins outside of the 4th and 5th CDs. Even if he did well in those CDs, if he lost big in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th and 8th then I think “landslide” is a fair term.
Also, I am not trying to “shut down the process”. This blog is neutral in the Senate race, and I happen to think a healthy competition between Franken, Ciresi and JNP would be good for the eventual nominee (whoever that is). But I’m not going to ignore facts, and the fact is that Franken did very well last night.
From what I saw in the Western burbs, it was definitely big for Franken. I was also surprised how many Madia supporters are out there. Even though it was her backyard, Bonoff seemed to have very little support. I would say Madia is definitely the frontrunner there. Lots and lots of Franken/Madia delegates coming out of last night.
Obama, Franken?
Seems to be where we’re heading. With the turnout, Norm Coleman should be dusting that resume off.
I am pretty happy with my results, and I ended up trying to be useful and helpful in my own overwhelmed precinct in SD 61, instead of running around and trying to address other caucuses or even shake hands in the lines into the adjacent precincts.
We have a lot of work to do to invite people in to the real DFL, the MN Daily report of the Coffman Union caucus participation is a critical warning sign
In my precinct (Summit Hill) we also had to subcaucus. Ciresi happened to show up right before we did the walk. Good timing for him, I thought. He gave his stump speech and left, and we got into our preference groups. There was a huge mass of people for Franken, a smaller bunch uncommitted, and a tiny group of Ciresi supporters. Uncommitted outnumbered Ciresi more than 2-1, five minutes after he gave his stump speech! Ouch! Not looking good for him, I don’t think.
Here in SD42, my precint held a straw vote around 8:30.
The results?
Franken = 30
JNP = 5
Ciresi = 2
For the honor of beating Erik “New! And Improved!!” Paulsen like a cheap drum, the results were:
Captain Madia = 14
Senator Bonoff = 11
Mayor Hovland = 2
And the official vote for President was:
Obama = 76
Clinton = 40
LAST NIGHT IN CHISHOM WE ONLY HAD A STRAW VOTE FOR PRES. NO ONE KNEW WHY THERE WAS NO STRAW VOTE FOR SENATOR. I WORE MY AL FRANKEN PIN PROUDLY. LOOKING FOWARD TO MARCH 15
HILLARY WON BY A LANDSLIDE!!!!!!!!
We didn’t do an official straw poll (in my precinct) but there was huge interest in Franken. Most were unfamilliar with the other candidates.
Another precinct in Olmsted reported 80/15 for Franken/Cirisi.
St Paul W2-P3 did a show of hands
Franken - 30
JNP - 8
Ciresi - 3
Unc - 2 (including me)
I was at the Waite Park precinct precinct caucus in NE minneapolis last night and we did not conduct a straw poll. Some folks were handing out franken stickers and I would say the majority of the people in the room put one on.
We had to select 57 delegates and 57 alts, but we basically had to twist arms to get people to step up for just the delegates. We didn’t have to do a walking caucus so we never really had to identify which candidate we are planning at supporting on March 29.
Franken was well represented though and I think if a straw poll had been conducted we would have seen numbers similar to what other are reporting. JJ
At Anne Sullivan school, the heart of SD62, JNP won significant gains in delegates. By about a 2-1 margin in 2:1; similar numbers in 9-1. Didn’t get counts from the other 2 or 3 precincts.
Let’s all keep in mind that when Jack talks directly to voters, many of them change their support. We’re about to get to the point where he’ll be able to do that in a much more focused way than he’s been able to up to now.
Maybe Franken had a good night. I’d expect that from a candidate that got in inordinately early and who’s put a bunch of money into television. But there’s still lots of persuasion that’s going to happen between now and state convention.
It’s way, way premature to link success in some straw polls to the DFL endorsement.
I get why ya’ll are excited about Barack. I went there after Edwards dropped. I even get why some folks get excited about Franken. But if pragmatism is the gold standard for who you’re going to support, then make a pragmatic argument to me about how Franken beats Coleman. I don’t see it. I actually see the opposite.
And if you ask me for a pragmatic argument for how JNP wins, I’ll make it. The short version is this: I agree with MNPublius about the fact that Barack is best positioned to make the changes we need in this country. That’s why he’s best to go up against any Republican challenger. The same argument can be made for JNP, albeit for different reasons.
I ended up helping convene a precinct I don’t live in when no convener showed up.
At Minneapolis 8-3 (SD 61) the Senate straw poll was:
Franken: 18
JNP: 8
Ciresi: 0
Then again, there were over 300 people voting for President from 8-3, so 26 votes is hardly representative of anything.
I’ve got no idea. It was very frustrating — there really wasn’t any chance to make any opinion known about the senate race in our caucus. I’ve got little respect for the DFL Senate Endorsement because of it.
Michael Lee……are you kidding me? That’s exactly what the delegate process is all about! If you wanted to affect the endorsement, you needed to run to be a delegate to the next convention! You obviously have little respect because you obviously didn’t bother to understand what you were doing there.
Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for caucuses in Minnesota. While its great that so many people want to participate, the system can’t handle it. Although Franken is terrible, its probably a good thing that he won in a landslide because the endorsement process (at least last night’s portion of it) is a bigger joke than the Florida mess in 2000. I heard that people went to caucuses where the conveners had no idea what was going on with the Senate race. People tried to “bother to understand” but the DFL couldn’t help them out.
I didn’t even get to the caucus because I had my young son with me and while I could walk 15 blocks, he couldn’t. I at least tried to park. I’m sure a lot of people with young kids were just resigned to the fact they can’t participate in the DFL endorsement process. Just like people in the active military. Or people who have to work nights. A primary allows you to fill out an absentee ballot or to stop in during the entire day the polls are open. Unless you have 3 or 4 hours to spend and are capable of walking a couple of miles, your input doesn’t matter.
“Landslide” is a way of saying just give up, you have lost. That is why FOX news announcers use stuff like that. Our delegate representation is not bound, current preferences can change. If something were to happen, or if people who had never really heard and talked to a candidate, receive a chance to explore and vet a candidate, then the soft leaning votes may change drastically. Our process is built on the idea that a good candidate can mount a small campaign via the delegates and thus gain the full support of the whole DFL. We have great candidates like Russ Stark (ward 4 city council person St Paul) and Erin Murphy (SD64A representative) because of the opportunity for a candidate to mount a campaign with small amounts of money, with grassroots support. Frankin, may indeed be the most wonderful candidate, however he is the “most money” candidate. The other candidates deserve a chance. So please, please respect our process.
We may or may not have turnouts like last night again, the stars aligned for a tight race between Obama and Clinton, we had a binding vote for delegate apportionment for the 1st time I can remember in 26 years of caucusing, no apparent front runner in either party. It doesn’t mean the caucus system is broken, maybe just limping from a twisted ankle.
A Presidential Primary system means money has MORE influence than grass roots support. It would be good for TV stations however. I’m sure the Hubbards could use more money.
The same would apply to statewide races such as Governor and Senator and Congressional races also.
I believe it more important to move the September Primary to earlier in the year.It is much too late to mount an efective general Election campaign, especially is your opponent is unopposed.
The nightmare scenario for the DFL (and what the GOP is hoping for!) is no endorsement at the State Convention and Ciresi and Franken beating each other up all summer long and burning cash that needs to be spent on defeating Norm Coleman. I don’t think JNP could be a player in a Primary battle, can’t raise the cash.
If Franken’s win is as big as it appears to be, look for Ciresi and Pall-Meyer to drop out before the convention. Franken clearly has the drive and the work ethic to get this done. Coleman will be working in Crawford, serving drinks to his masters this time next year.
In SD64 W4-5, 8 of us were students for Jack and we all signed up as delegates to go on. We didn’t do a strawpoll, even though a lot of people asked why. Plenty of Franken stickers though, he probably did have an excellent night.
We did have a straw poll after some confusion about whether we would have a walking caucus or just a show of hands. Al won overwhelmingly: Mike Ciresi had about 6 votes, Jack N-P, about 20 and there were over 70 votes for Al. I don’t have the exact count because we just wanted a show of hands and the room was packed. On the presidential side, Hllary had 41 to Obama’s 126. For those of us who support a women in the White House, it was not a good night. However, for AL FRANKEN supporters, it was a GREAT night.
Pall-Meyer ran an excellent campaign and you should continue to work for him. His ideas will push the party to adopt more and more progressive agendas. Stay active and stay involved.
Given our state’s propensity to pick the losing side, i.e. Obama, it seems that Franken is indeed a lock.
Hillary Clinton. Resistance is futile.
Full disclosure: I am a Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer supporter.
That said, 4 points:
First, when Jack speaks at a public forum where Franken is present, Franken draws the crowd, but Jack walks away with the supporters. Case in point was the Take Action Minnesota straw poll last week. Franken bussed in his suporters, but Jack won the vote. Jack could not have won that contest without some of those on Franken’s bus voting for Jack. One former Franken supporter took off his Franken button and wrote out a Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer contribution check on the spot. Another drove an hour and a half the next day to volunteer in Jack’s office.
Second, there is a lot of time for Jack’s supporters to be calling state convention delegates between now and June. Some people (like Sean) may think we are too enthusiastic, but quite a few others will be convinced by those conversations, even Franken supporters. And definitely Ciresi supporters.
Third, DFLers are hungry for a win and very eager to take back Wellstone’s seat. As they think about Al Franken’s temperament and high negatives, they may decide that Franken is too risky. Even if they were laughing their heads off at Franken’s latest off-color joke about Coleman. And if Franken has an on-camera meltdown before June, he will definitely lose the endorsement.
Last, even if Franken wins the endorsement, it won’t make much difference in terms of policy. He is likely to lose the election to toothy Norm Coleman. And even if he wins the election, he still won’t do much to get us out of Iraq, not do much to keep us out of Iran, nor much to solve the climate change problem, nor much to get us single-payer healthcare. Of all the DFL candidates running, his positions most closely resemble Norm’s.
Zack, it is always possible that you are right and that Franken’s money (77% from outside Minnesota, 54 contributors from Beverly Hills alone) will win him the endorsement. But a Franken win just doesn’t do much to help the DFL in the long term, and it isn’t really much of a policy difference over what we have right now. Al Franken and Norm Coleman belong to different tribes, but they mostly have the same strange customs.
Charley and Grace-
I am not a Franken supporter. I am neutral in this race. I did not say that he would be the best candidate against Coleman, or that he would be the best Senator. I am neutral in this race. I am not trying to shut down the process, I am reporting the facts as I know them. If you have facts that contradict those that I am reporting (meaning evidence that JNP or Ciresi won more delegates than Franken last night) please share it and I PROMISE you I will post it as soon as I verify it.
This blog had nothing to do with Al Franken’s superior showing yesterday. We didn’t even endorse him. If you want to get angry with me, fine, but this is just silly.
And Grace, the word “landslide” as I used it in this post is not meant to mean “give up JNP and Ciresi supporters” its meant to mean “Al Franken won far more Senate District Convention delegates than JNP and Ciresi.” Like it or not, that is the truth.
Oh, and by the way, I AM NEUTRAL IN THIS RACE!
I pretty much can’t stand Al Franken. He’s a warmonger and a liar, and Norm Coleman is going to kick his ass this fall. But he wiped the floor with Ciresi and Pallmeyer last night. If Franken isn’t already embarassed by his own past behavior and skeletons, then I don’t see anything that he could do between now and the primary that would stop him. He’s the nominee. Deal with it.
Even if they were laughing their heads off at Franken’s latest off-color joke about Coleman.
Please post the date and content of Franken’s latest off color joke about Coleman. I’ve met the man and he was serious and had an impressive command of the issues.
Dan, you’ve made your opinion known over and over again yet you’ve never offered a scintilla of evidence that it’s anything more then your opinion. The nomination process isn’t over yet. Quit getting your opinions from MDE and do a little research. Deal with it.
I was please that around 1/4 of the people who showed up to vote for prez stayed to caucus in SD60 13-7. Far and away the majority of them stayed for what they expected to be a Senate vote.
As usual it was assumed we would have trouble getting 28/28 delegates for the next round and so the normal call for volunteers went out. At that point JNP probably lost 10 delegates because we called for a walking sub -caucus. (Hey the JNP people are much more active no knock on them) without the sub-caucus the majority of the delegates would have been JNP supporters. The actual breakout was AL: 14, JNP:7, Uncommitted 4, Mike: 3.
Richard, I think you are the one who needs to do some research. I own and have read Franken’s (political) books)and my first thought when I heard he might be running was that there is no way he can be serious with what he has written. All the talk about Republican motherfuckers, etc. Unfortunately for us, he was serious.
Franken’s last incident of course was his going off on the Carlton student, where even the Democrats present thought that Franken was a total jerk. The Angry Al persona being peddled by MDE is all based on Franken’s quotes and behavior. The star of the negative ads against Franken this fall will be Al Franken.
My favorite thing is the the talk about Franken’s “impressive command” of the issues. When you look back at Franken’s record on the Iraq war - his enthusiastic support and his agreeing with Bush and opposing Democratic withdrawal plans - his command of the issues is absolutely atrocious. He’s a moron with horrible judgment. But the guy talks fast and sounds good, so who cares about the substance, right?
In Senate Dist 66, I’m in St.Paul’s ward 4, precinct 2. Over 500 voted for President; by the time of the straw poll for Senate, most people had left. I don’t have the exact figures, but it was about like this: Al Franken, 78. Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer, 30. Mike Ciresi, 16. Uncommitted, 11. Dick Franson, 0.
Demographics: this is a highly academic, white-collar precinct next to the U of M St. Paul campus and including the Luther-Northwest Theological Seminary. Despite the high turnout, we did not subcaucus for delegates, since an appeal for self-nominated delegates drew exactly the number of people needed, plus some willing alternates.
We had a straw poll at Northern School here in Northern Bemidji. There were 4 or 5 votes for Jack Pallmeyer and one vote for Cirici. After I gave my impassioned pro Franken speech the one vote for Cirici was changed to Franken. Al received 32 votes.
Neither I nor my Democrat wife will vote for Franken, period. Ciresi or JNP sure but not Franken. I don’t know what I would do in a Franken, Coleman race but it won’t be to vote for Franken. Minnesota had one state wide elected official get his job because he was famous and that is enough for me. And at leas Ventura was from Minnesota and didn’t move here for the expressed purpose of running for office.
Franken is a recovering coke addict, any regular user of cocaine is an addict, who has used homosexuals and minorities as the punch line to too many jokes, was in favor of the Iraq invasion, and is far and away the least qualified of the Democratic candidates. He is basically an immature sycophant who is using Minnesota Democrats to stroke his ego. And I have met and talked to the man and watched him interact with a small group of people as well as read some of his books and listened to him on the radio.
If Franken is the nomination I know a decent number of people who would split their ticket and go Obama/Coleman. If it is Clinton they would be so pissed off they would vote Republican down the line. And these are people who can’t stand Bush and have always been against the war.
I watched this, live:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYBA9JD5oW4
And I admit it; I supported the invasion of Iraq, based on this.
Why those behind Powell’s speech are not now behind bars, is also a crime.
I have no problem with Franken’s original position on Iraq; nor Clinton’s.
Nor should anyone, that remembers exactly what Powell - and through him, our government - testified to the world, pre-invasion.
Say, KH?
You make clear you’re mighty unforgiving of Franken’s past; how do you feel about Coleman’s past? You know, Hofstra? etc? etc? etc?
Thanks for your objectivity, Dan. I am a Franken supporter because he has demonstrated his passionate commitment to the ethical issues that disturb us all. He doesn’t flinch when others make what are often hysterical accusations against him for his astute satire in his books,or for shining light on highly charged issues on his radio show. It takes integrity to stick your neck out in a very public way, in order to call out those in positions of authority on their disservice to public discourse. His supporters recognize the power of his public voice, and how effectively he can speak for them. Very few Democrats do that in the Senate. On occasion, some have made laudable speeches in order to expose Republican self-serving action. Unfortunately, the senators who command public and media attention are too often just grandstanding; when push comes to shove, these same senators seem too concerned with political gamesmanship. Franken’s voice expresses an abiding faith that the truth is the most effective weapon. Indeed, it is the only one he has ever employed. Does he always know the truth? No. However, what distinguishes him is that he doesn’t confuse it with bravado, but rather works with dedication to uncover and understand where the truth lies. JNP, who Franken himself publicly applauds, also has great integrity. Yet, Franken’s compassion and raw humanness jumps out and connects with people. His is a very real charismatic personality of substance. THAT is why where ever he goes, people come away excited by his candidacy. Now, contrast that with Coleman’s plasticity, and you can begin to understand why Franken will stand out and up to the loud megaphone provided by the GOP machine. JNP reminds some of Kucinich. But is it a Kucinich or a dynamic, energetic Wellstone personality that can effectively rise above all the GOP noise? Among Democrats, we should realize that this campaign isn’t a choice between black and white, good and evil. Face it,it’s also not about a dry comparison lifted off of a list of issue stands. JNP and Franken are too similar on the issues to give integrity to those who would vilify Franken in order to promote another candidate. Franken has never done this. That should tell you something.
Environmentalists should be running from Al Franken. He uses them like an ATM machine in the metro area and then goes up to the Iron Range and bad-mouths the Sierra Club. Franken also wants more nukes. Thanks Al. What’s next, an ad showing Al blazing through the mud on an ATV?
Ciresi is no better. Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer should be getting the support of environmentalists in the DFL — if there are any left.
Anybody who supported the war is a fool. Even if you believed everything the Bush administration said there was no reason to invade Iraq. There was no evidence given of Iraq preparing to invade the U.S. and plenty of other countries that were closer to having WMDs. Invading Korea or Iran would have made more sense than Iraq on WMD grounds and since we stood by and did nothing in Rwanda and the Sudan I’m fairly sure nobody cared about humanitarian reasons. We invaded simply because we could.
Citizens that supported the invasion did so out of a mix of fear and arrogance. Congress members who supported it did so out of political expedience or because they truly agreed with the idea of American imperialism. Hillary and others who voted for the use of force resolution abdicated their constitutional responsibilities and gave the power to wage war to the president for no reason what so ever. Believing Powell is the smokescreen for their immoral incompetence. Nothing Powell said provided a valid reason to murder hundreds of thousands of people. The responsibility for those deaths is on the hands of everyone who supported the war to some degree. The fact that Democrats who pretend to be against the war continue to support candidates that were either stupid or immoral says a lot about the party. How people who liked Wellstone can stand voting for Franken or Clinton shows to presence of some sort of mental break.
As for Franken’s history. The coke thing as an adult isn’t a big deal to me but it will be to many, more so than Coleman and pot while in school. Franken is a professional lier and the fact that so many people are fooled into thinking he is competent on the issues is sad. He is a bigot and a sycophant that hides behind humor. The fact that you say bigoted things in a funny way doesn’t change that fact that they are bigoted. He cares more about himself than Minnesota, if he would have had a better shot at winning an election in a different state he would be living there right now.
TPT, there was plenty of evidence that Powell was full of shit at the time of his speech. Franken wants people to believe that Powell’s speech should have been enough for anyone to support the war, and that’s just not true. The truth is that Al Franken is really dumb and used horrible judgment, and that he continues to lie about it today.
Judy, do you know anything at all about Al Franken?
When you are talking about sticking your neck out, do you mean when Franken spoke at the Clear-Channel pro-war rally? Franken didn’t just vote for the war resolution. He thought it was a good idea to start a war with a country that posed no threat to us. Does sticking his neck out include criticizing Democrats for wanting to withdraw from Iraq and saying he “agrees with Bush.”
Truth is Franken’s only weapon? Well, first Franken is a serial liar who can’t come clean about his Iraq support. And I think Franken’s main weapon is actually the ad hominem attack. Nominating Franken is basically like nominating Ann Coulter. Al
Franken drags the level of discourse down to the gutter.
And,yes, Norm Coleman is a terrible guy and should be very vulnerable. But Al Franken is his life preserver. The only thing that could save Coleman was the Democrats running a vulgar, dishonest warmonger like Al Franken. You are going to see Republicans in other states running against Al Franken. We’ve created an absolute disaster here.
Both Franken and Hillary supported going into Iraq at the beginning. Of the two, I am supporting Al for his senate seat but not supporting Hillary for her presidential run. Why the difference?
Because since that time, Al has followed the situation, delved deeper into the run up to the invasion and come away realizing what millions of others came to realize; it was all a ruse and based on lies. Al has repeatedly apologized for his original stance and done everything he possible could to help put an end to this colossal fiasco. That, to me, is someone of integrity. I won’t condemn someone for taking a wrong position if they come to the realization that it was wrong, and I give them extra credit if they then work to correct that wrong. Just as Al has done.
Unlike Al, Hillary has never acknowledged that her vote authorizing the worst president in US history to go to war. She has never apologized and never backed down from her mistake; instead hoping to sugar coat it with spin and excuses. Not a sign of integrity in my book.
And btw, Franken will cream coleman come November. I can’t wait for those debates!!
I already posted about the straw poll, but that seems to have been lost sight of.
I have read some of Mr. Franken’s books. I think he is indeed vulnerable since his sarcasm lies outside the usual politically permissible dialogue. But to his credit, Al’s book “Rush Limbaugh Is A Big Fat Liar” was a terrific accomplishment. He really took Limbaugh down several notches — -and gave hope to a lot of beaten and bedraggled liberals. The fascist propaganda machine is still intact, but Mr. Franken struck the first effective counter-punch against it.
If Al goes on the defensive, he will be a weak candidate. He must start now — -should have started earlier — - to attack Norm on issues. to frame the debate and set the tone of the campaign. He absolutely must tie Norm to the Bush-Cheney crime syndicate, as tightly as possible.
You can’t beat an entrenched incumbent without a strong attack.
As for Al’s political sins — -as opposed to his personal baggage — - they hurt him more with the base than with the general public. Unfortunately, most of the public bought the brainwashing about the war. So they will be less likely to hold it against him that Al also did so. It gives them something in common.
As for Al’s use of illicit substances — -and Obama’s as well — -the worst thing to do is to be scared about that. Minnesota is the national center of recovery and treatment culture — -and Al can promise to get federal $$ for effective solutions to abuse and addiction. I’d like to hear the fanatics like Kerosene Hat say out loud: “We don’t want the votes of anyone who ever used illicit drugs, or drank alcohol under-age or smoked cigarettes.”
Go ahead. If violation of the prohibition law disqualifies a candidate, then that disqualification should apply equally well to the voters. If the candidate is contaminated, the voter must be too. Go ahead — -say it. And don’t make a hypocritical and dishonest and untruthful “… it doesn’t count if you were in college” exception, either. Then whoever your candidate is, will deserve to lose — -but they will be pure, won’t they?
Almost every family has been touched by the consequences of drug prohibitionism. Whether it has been through the addiction, the incarceration, the cultural conflict — -it’s pervasive. And nothing could be healthier and lead to an ultimate favorable outcome, than the example of people who encountered, rejected, and rose above the difficulties of abuse and addiction. That ought to give hope to all. Furthermore, not all use is abuse. When Pope John Paul II went to Bolivia, he drank coca tea — containing cocaine — a folk remedy (which works) for altitude sickness. So, Kerosene Hat, put that in your ideological crack pipe and smoke it.
Actually, if you go back and look at polling from the time, most of the public was not brainwashed about the war. There was a lot of opposition and skepiticam, and even supporters wanted more inspections or to get U.N. approval. Al Franken would like you to believe everyone was brainwashed to excuse his horrible judgment, but he is lying.
I expect that the base will come out and support Franken this fall. As much as I can’t stand him, I will still vote for him. The problem with his political sins, namely has war support, is that it makes it very difficult to separate himself from Coleman. Both supported the war. Both have criticized the handling of the war. Both waffle on withdrawal from Iraq.
And I really liked Franken’s books. They were funny and did take people like Limbaugh down a few notches. But people who write books like that can’t run for office.
The drugs are pretty far down on the list of Franken’s many problems as a candidate.
OK, granting some of your points. What I remember is this: in 2002, Al Franken was campaigning hard for Paul Wellstone. Paul had voted against the war. If Paul Wellstone did not reject Al Franken on the basis of Franken’s prior, poorly-informed stand about the issue, then I don’t have that much of am objection either.
I am more concerned that Al may buy into the notion that a campaign needs professional “consultants” and p.r.-type advisors, who run focus groups on everything and keep a finger to the wind. I actually think the uninhibited Franken who wrote “Why Not Me” and “Rush Limbaugh” would be a superior candidate. I won’t go into my reasons for that, and after all, what do I know?
Paul probably would have beaten Coleman in 2002 — -though Norm is a strong closer and always finishes with a flurry. (I think he was catching up to Ventura in ‘98 and would have won, a week later.)
What worked for Paul Wellstone was that he was always himself, and people loved him and believed in him and worked like crazy for him.
What worked for Mark Dayton in 2000 was going berserk at the NRA conference.
You never really know what is going to work.
What DIDN’T work for Ann Wynia was listening to the handlers, the paid consultants, the people who thought they knew how to run a campaign — -but didn’t know Minnesota and didn’t know Ann, either.
She faithfully followed all their instructions, and lost.
I don’t get your last sentence. People who write books you say you really like, can’t run for office? Sure they can run! But of course you mean, can’t GET ELECTED. Looks like we’re going to find out. There are certain intangibles in politics. You don’t have to be a nice person in order to have popular appeal. Look at the record. Some people just have political appeal and some don’t, it’s sort of like sex appeal. When you meet Norm Coleman, you understand how he has been successful. The question about Franken is, does synthetic celebrity generated by the boob tube correlate with genuine mass appeal?
Franken isn’t stupid. I hope if he’s the nominee that he respects the base in order to earn the Wellstone-like loyalty he’ll need.
Finally, this is coming down in my opinion to the question of who wants to win. Norm’s whole life is political ambition personified. To beat him, you’re going to have to want to beat him more than he wants to stay in. That will be a tall order, requiring a fanatical fixation on winning and an exercise of applied willpower that defies description. Read Robert Caro’s “Means of Ascent” to understand what it means.
Paul Wellstone died before Franken came out and supported the war so there is no way to know for sure how Wellstone would have felt. But given the fact that Wellstone voted against even giving Bush the authority to go to war, I would suspect he would have rejected Franken’s position wanting to start the actual war.
By saying someone who has written books like Franken’s can’t run, I mean they shouldn’t run because they can’t win. But you are right - we’ll find out. I have lived in St. Paul for 20 years and am very familiar with the political skills of Norm Coleman. He can be beaten, but I sincerely doubt he can be beaten by a guy like Al Franken.
“Because since that time, Al has followed the situation, delved deeper into the run up to the invasion and come away realizing what millions of others came to realize; it was all a ruse and based on lies. Al has repeatedly apologized for his original stance and done everything he possible could to help put an end to this colossal fiasco.”
Where do people get stuff like this? If Franken was going everything possible, why did he oppose Democratic withdrawal plans and say he agreed with Bush and opposed withdrawal?
And the bigger question, of course, is why Franken didn’t realize it at the time, like millions of other people did. For a guy who purportedly looked up to Paul Wellstone, he sure didn’t listen to anything Wellstone had to say.
Oliver,
As I said, Franken’s use isn’t a big deal for me, for all the reasons you mentioned but my point was that that will not be true for most folks. People forgive others for the sins they have committed and more people have gotten stoned in college than have had their cocaine stolen by John Belushi.
By the way I support the legalization of most drugs because I believe the drug war has created more crime than addiction could ever hope to.
I must have mis-read the intent and meaning of Kerosene Hat’s first post, for which I herewith apologize. I do get too hasty sometimes!
I find it interesting to note that in most of the caucus’ conducting straw polls, Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer is garnering more votes than Mike Ciresi. In just 5 short months, with minimal capital, this has become a 2 way race between Al Franken and Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer. Jack’s campaign is just getting started folks. I encourage all of you, who see at the end of an ugly campaign…Senator Norm Coleman…to help us spread the word, raise the money, and convince the skeptics that Minnesota deserves Senator Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer
I was by no means clear in my first post and did a poor job of clarification in my second. I too can be hasty.
“Franken wants people to believe that Powell’s speech should have been enough for anyone to support the war, and that’s just not true.
Dan, I’m not talking about Franken; I’m talking ME. And I’m plenty reasonable, with a fully-functioning BS Detector.
And what this misAdministration was doing; what this misAdministration was saying; what Powell testified to the UN, was good enough for me - at the time.
Looking back, I was wrong. I should have been more skeptical. I (cheney)ed up. I admit it.
Americans are a forgiving people; those who stand up, man up, and announce they (cheney)ed up and are sorry, are usually forgiven for their transgressions - IF the act of contrition is perceived as genuine and authentic.
Let ye who is perfect, cast the first stone.
TPT, my problem is that I don’t think Franken has manned-up. He doesn’t just say he was wrong - he says he was misled by Powell’s speech, which implies that it wasn’t has fault. Franken wants people to think that everyone fell for Powell’s BS, when that just isn’t true. There has been little, if any, contrition.
The problem isn’t just forgiving Franken - a lot of Democrats need to be forgiven for their conduct regarding the war. Its that Franken has such bad judgment. It drives me nuts that people keep talking about Franken’s great grap of the issues. If you look as his record, he has a terrible grasp of the issues.
As far as the war goes, it didn’t matter whether or not Saddam had WMDs. Why? Ask Dick Cheney (your favorite guy) in 1991:
“If you’re going to go in and try to topple Saddam Hussein, you have to go to Baghdad. Once you’ve got Baghdad, it’s not clear what you do with it. It’s not clear what kind of government you would put in place of the one that’s currently there now. Is it going to be a Shia regime, a Sunni regime or a Kurdish regime? Or one that tilts toward the Baathists, or one that tilts toward the Islamic fundamentalists? How much credibility is that government going to have if it’s set up by the United States military when it’s there? How long does the United States military have to stay to protect the people that sign on for that government, and what happens to it once we leave?”
Hey, TPT:
Going back a few weeks, here is some more information on the environmental disaster that is corn ethanol. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/08/science/earth/08wbiofuels.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Dan: Great quote from Cheney! what’s the attribution, please?
About Jack’s candidacy - - - how does he overcome the “anonymity” problem against Norm, much less against Al Franken? It does seem he’s well ahead of Mike Ciresi.
For the general election, he’d probably gain a significant number of votes by un-hyphenating his name. And reversing it. Jack Pallmeyer Nelson. The advantage of a Scandinavian surname is not what it once was (Roger Moe couldn’t beat Pawlenty, though that wasn’t the only factor, of course.) But a good Scandinavian name is not to be sneezed at, especially for an otherwise unknown candidate. It would definitely help!
No straw polling for Senate in my precinct caucus.
having a Scandinavian surname was good for AG Lori Swanson.
I think Jack is as likely to change his name as he is to dump his wife.
I wasn’t really serious with the name change suggestion. It IS true about the Swanson race, that her name helped … although wasn’t she running against a guy named Johnson?
Jack gave a great speech at the 5th Dist endorsing convention two years ago, as I recall.