Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are innocent of this. Here’s Republican Trent Franks:
A president that has lost his way that badly, that has no ability to see the image of God in these little fellow human beings, if he can’t do that right, then he has no place in any station of government, and we need to realize that he is an enemy of humanity.
Not to be outdone, here’s Democrat Alan Grayson:
Rep. Alan Grayson, D-Fla., warned Americans that “Republicans want you to die quickly” during an after-hours House floor speech Tuesday night.
Folks, this is really not helpful. Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives, obviously have major differences of opinion on policy, but that doesn’t make the other side evil. How can a policymaker who thinks that his colleagues are “enemies of humanity” possibly ever work for the common good with representatives from the other party?
We need a major paradigm shift, and I’m starting to despair that we’re ever going to get it.
Our government was designed by geniuses so it could be run by idiots — never more true than today.
Where is your sense of humor. This man makes a good point that the republicans have no health care plan. This is certainly no worse than all the "pull the plug on grandma" talk that came from the right side of the aisle.
It bugs the hell out of me they was Democrats are so ready to bend over and act Minnesota Nice when discussing the discourse in politics.
Grayson's words are absolutely nothing to the way the Right has been ginning up questions of legitimacy and violence around this President. They have lied and ran propaganda campaigns against the Presidents agenda to the point that the very idiots who would benefit the most from the agenda, are out protesting against it. They have rallied in town halls, capitol grounds, weekend workshops and even the halls of Congress to discredit the President and the Left. People are grabbing guns and others are committing murder because they have been whipped up in frenzy by these pretenders on the Right and you want to equally blame both sides? Are you doing heroin before writing?
These Republicans have quite possibly broken the system because the lost an election. They lost an election and have decided to tear the country apart and you want to shake your finger at Democrats? WTF?
This is possibly the worst thing you've ever written, not just on here- ever.
I'm so damn mad I'm typing with even less evidence of literacy than before.
First sentence should read: It bugs the hell out of me that Democrats are so ready…
In the eyes of the right, civility is a weakness. Damn straight that Grayson said what this country needs to hear.
The democrats are like Fredo Corleone, as described by Michael: "He's got a good heart, but he's weak, and he's stupid, and this is life and death."
Excellent response, I believe this is called false equivalency. T. Friedman has a column today about being disturbed about what the right is doing to the country:
"And Mr. Obama is now having his legitimacy attacked by a concerted campaign from the right fringe. They are using everything from smears that he is a closet “socialist” to calling him a “liar” in the middle of a joint session of Congress to fabricating doubts about his birth in America and whether he is even a citizen. And these attacks are not just coming from the fringe. Now they come from Lou Dobbs on CNN and from members of the House of Representatives."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/30/opinion/30fried...
Also Huffington post has a good story about how many repubs have talked on the house floor about health reform killing people - with no calls for an apologies.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/30/despite-...
While the actual words were poorly chosen, an uninsured person has a 2.5X greater chance of death in the hospital, and a 40% chance of death in a given year than an insured person. That the republican caucus is choosing to block meaningful health care reform shows a callous disregard for the welfare of the American people.
This isn't just an academic point about civility in the health care debate, although I agree with you that blocking substantive reform is a cruelty to those that need health reform, and need it now.
To get a sense of how things are, read this post by Andrew Sullivan: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_d...
Perry, who is cited by Sullivan is wrong on the facts.
http://www.history.army.mil/faq/oaths.htm
I think the words were poorly chosen too. Republicans want you to linger on so the insurance companies will get more money.
Y'all are right. It does get us nowhere. It does however get the right everywhere. Stop being a good Minnesotan and get comfortable with the fact that we won. Because how Minnesotan do you have to be to criticize those on our own side, who are saying thing that are nothing less than the truth, when they dare to fight back, simply because they are being impolite?
With a smaller majority in the Senate than we have now, the Republicans used budget reconciliation a dozen times - including on the tax cuts that are at the heart of the current deficit they claim to care so much about. We talk about, they call it unconstitutional, and we fold.
We need to go big. Every time they talk about us needing 60, we need to be out there, accusing them of subverting the rule of the majority. We need to knit it all together - whenever the Republicans open their mouths on healthcare, it has to be come about why they are subverting the majority when people are dying.
They used lies to get us into a war, let the bankers destroy the economy and let healthcare costs go through the roof. And we challenge this by… talking about civility? We challenged Pawlenty's un-allotment by talking about good government and… he's still north of 50% favorables. And tens of thousands of people still don't have healthcare. But my don't we DFLers feel principled, and polite, and nice.
If we want to fix the problems this state and this country face, we are going to have to start to want to win, and want to be in charge. And I don't mean the Klobuchar kind of winning, where you destroy you opponent but lack the drive to do anything but the safest, most anodyne legislation. I mean LBJ winning, when we embrace being in charge and do things! We have 60 votes in the Senate, and the right gets to dictate the terms of the debate!
Screw the Republicans if they can't take a joke. I'm tired of their manufactured outrage and deception as policy. You want a civil discussion, then I'm ready to do that, but I have not seen a civil discussion out a Republican since Nixon. And every time I hear a Democrat talk about being all polite and nice I see a chump who's lunch money is going to end up in some Republicans pocket.
Rep. Grayson's comment reminds me of the comment by Rep. Barney Franks that "conservatives believe that life begins at conception and ends at birth." No wonder they're opposed to health care.
Good post, Jeff. The tone of civility in Washington and in St. Paul is pathetic. Each party vilifies the other. Each party has a goal of showing that the other is not only wrong, but that they are morally bankrupt or unAmerican. It is a shame.
They have never been buddy-buddy, but the two parties today are as divided as they have ever been. And worse, they are asking Americans to pick a side. To choose between two flawed, ugly choices.
I think it has always been tense, but it got worse about the time of hte Lewinsky scandal, and that one was the GOP's fault for making it all such a parade. It has only been made worse by CNBC, FoxNews, Rush, and Michael Moore.
Everyone should read "A Man's Reach" by Elmer Andersen. He shows that the goal of politics should not be to win. It should be to find a problem and fix it. To do someone that can make peoples' lives better, and not be hellbent on getting your entire way.
This, coming from a guy who lost Gubernatorial re-election by just 91 votes after HHH pulled one of his few dirty tricks as a public servant. Was he resentful? No. He did even more to help Minnesota's quality of life as an ex-Governor than he did as a Governor. (helps to be a multi-millionaire, though).
You LIE!
You Republicans up the stakes with this kind of rhetoric every damn time you find yourselves falling behind in the eyes of the American people. Newt won the House back utilizing the tactic of Democrats being evil, not just wrong. Six months after the Dems took over, the Republicans began blaming unemployment and gas prices on them. They are the party of no answers and all emotions.
I won't stand around let the likes of you try the moral equivalency game of its both parties fault.
Jeff, writes about how we can't get a public option one day, then chastises Democrats for returning 1/100th of the fire the next day. Pulease.
John is right. We need to go big, use reconciliation where possible and get our agenda passed. After that, if the republicans want to talk civility, then maybe.
DantheMan,
Michael Moore recieves large amounts of hate mail and death threats regularly, just as many Liberals do. Why is this so common?
Because he is a celebrity. Every celeb from MIchael Jordan to Sean Hannity to Rihanna gets death threats which we hear about in the news.
More republican fake outrage and incredibly obvious hypocrisy:
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/09/30/mchenry-price-health/
You people…you chant the most horrible insults at our commander in chief, the leader of the free world…you push lies and hysteria a la Fox News…and then you have the GALL to claim you’re offended and demand an apology, because ONE democrat spit it back in your faces?
Wake up people. Civility in politics is dead. Get over it. It’s now time to beat these f@ckers at their own game.
And DtM, as much as I admire your truly moderate stance, I must say that you have a tendency to ignore intensity and degree, when you make statements like “both sides do it”. That’s like saying a jaywalker and an ax murderer should be treated equally because they both broke the law. The right has been doing crap like this since Nixon. They have a huge propaganda machine to push it, and they are united in their uncivility. And please, don’t come back with Air America. 90% of talk radio is right-wing. It’s taken decades for just a few lefties to get it through their skulls that being nice to these @ssholes doesn’t work. They just laugh and go f@ck up some government program for the poor.
Whew! I feel better. And I note the irony of my post.
The tone of discourse has little, if anything, to do with being "nice." It's about recognizing that we are all the same country, allin the same boat, and that we rise or fall together. I'm not evil if I disagree with you, I just have different ideas about how the coutry should be run. Reasonable people can, and do, differ.
We get nowhere with the "he started it" argument. Pointing fingers (and yes, I have done my share) lets us all avoid responsibility and turns the whole thing into a stand-off. Intelligent people of goodwill, and of all political persuasions, need to cut the crap and get down to business. In the end, it doesn;t matter whose fault it it: we are diminished by our own pettiness.
Randy I would somewhat agree with you except the acknowledged leader of my party is President Obama and the acknowledged leader of their party is Rush Limbaugh. How do you be reasonable with unreasonable people? Do you honestly think that anything we say and any way we say it is going to matter to a ragtag Southern rump party lead by a drug addicted "entertainer" is going to matter? Look at what just happened over a speech from the President to school kids composed of "work hard and succeed"?
This is just like DJZ said above" These Republicans have quite possibly broken the system because the lost an election. They lost an election and have decided to tear the country apart and you want to shake your finger at Democrats?"
They are not coming from a place of "different ideas". They are coming from a winner take all and the devil take the hindmost. You want to know what kind of government most Republicans want… ask the libertarians. Or the religious fanatics. Or the No-Nothings and Teabaggers.
What does it mean that the "acknowledged leader" of your party is Obama, and of the GOP is Rush?
If Obama became leader of the Democratic party by gaining their endorsement last fall, wouldn't that make the leader of the GOP John McCain? To my knowledge, Rush has never been elected by anyone. Just another talking head.
I would also argue that the tactics employed by Rahm Emanuel are no more virtuous than the those employed by Karl Rove during his first year of advising a President.
Randy - yours is the best post of the thread.
Nothing wrong with being nice. I know alot of very talented people who live here in Minnesota who I'd categorize as "nice" but can still address issues head-on and have difficult conversations when they need to.
In fact, I'd argue that a big part of being civil is not shying away from what needs to be said. You just say it with an element of respect.
I stand by my comment.
Republicans have shown us some ugly behavior. They have definately been taken over by the far right wing in the past decade. Not pretty.
But don't act like there is a huge difference. The Democratic and Republican Congressmen in DC are alot more like each other than either one is like you or like me.
I'll just say this: The "winner takes all" mentality that you criticize doesn't appear to have a chance of breaking its cycle anytime soon. I'd maintain the party in power has the burden to stop it.
You're living in a dream world. For every uncivil comment from the left, there's probably 20 from the right. Granted, that's my estimate, not based on any statistical evidence. This comes from my experience following politics for some 50 years.
btw, anybody know of a site that tracks this information? (The bile from the left vs. that from the right).
DantheMan,
We all know you think both sides are just as bad. You repeat that every time a Republican is accused of bad behavior. "Democrats do it too!" is the lamest excuse I've ever heard. I hear it is popular with 6 year old schoolyard bullies that run to the teacher when the nerds finally gang up on him.
You do not seek middle ground on this issue. You ignore anyone who makes any valid response to your flawed opinion.
You have said basically the same thing over and over and over and over and over again.
I don't think you're convincing anyone. So why keep doing the same thing over and over again?
Jeff, your post is 100% spot on. I am kind of glad that a Democrat is kind of showing some balls and audacity. I agree though, t should be better placed. I just want someone who has fire in their belly. Like FDR.
Why not start with a change in rhetoric on your website. The comments left by your liberal readers are mostly name calling and stereotyping. Wouldn't it more stimulating to have intelligent conversations about our differences of opinion?
OK I'll bite. Do you disavow and condemn the vitriolic and rude statements of Anne Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Michelle Bachmann, Sarah Pallin and the rest of the Republican leadership? Or is it only Democrats who are "mad"?
I don't think ConservChick said you were "mad". But, of course, you are. All the time. You and I have conversed about that before. (see "PO'd" conversation in this same comment set)
So, let's do a balanced list - Keith Olbermann, Rep. Hank Johnson (GA), Ed Schultz,
Bill Maher, Jeannine Garofolo, Van Jones (look under bus), Stephanie Miller, Jeremiah Wright (same location as V.J.)…shall I go on?
QED. Why can’t you just admit that the people Amuseinc are behaving badly?
You're obviously a newbie, CC.
wow.
Hopefully, anger management treatment will be covered.
Kathy you still mad that soldiers get health care benefits for themselves, their families and survivors? You sure were POed the other day that some of your precious tax dollars went to them. May be you could use some of that fancy psychiatry stuff.
Au contraire. And not PO'd at all. Just checking in. I'm honored to give back to Alec and all those who served. I owe them a great debt. But, once again, passing what we
give back through the hands of numerous superfluous government bureaucrats often doesn't have the best outcome for the recipients. It's that waste and fraud thing we've been hearing so much about.
I also think we have to get much more honest about where the funding in
"government-funded" really comes from. Even though someone deserved not to have to "pay a dime" doesn't mean that we shouldn't be fully aware of how the dimes DID get paid. There is no magical pile of money.
Here's the thing: if we really want more civil discourse, here are a few suggestions
1) Stop donating to people that scream things like "You Lie" at the president.
2) Turn off HLN, Fox News, and the 3-Q shows on MSNBC
3) De-Friend Sarah Palin on Facebook
4) Stop following Michael Moore on Twitter
These things feed on attention. Myself, I prefer a little Minnesota Public Radio.
Excellent suggestions. The 24-hour news cycle is a big part of the problem.
Although I have my own issues with MPR (but that's another story entirely).
Amen.
Right after we get out agenda passed. Then, Kumbaya with whomever.
Right after we get our agenda passed.
Kathy, I hope this is a civil reply to your earlier comments. And it is Part 1. The mnpublius software told me my post is too long! No wonder we write vitriolic soundbites instead of reasonable discussions. Anyway, here goes…
First, the government is us. We vote leaders in and vote 'em out. Being a diverse group of 300,000,000, we have differences of opinion of how we should govern ourselves. One important point, though, is that government is not the enemy, unless Pogo's statement is true "we have met the enemy and he is us."
Part 2…
Another premise before going on: people arrange themselves in various groups that grab as much power as they can with whatever means they have at their disposal. Government in American is one large structure that, for our 233 years, has worked pretty well, although not always to everyone's satisfaction. In the past in Europe, religions have often literally and figuratively run countries. So far in America we've avoided this dilemma (getting past the Puritans in early Massachusetts). One group that wields huge influence in America, although they have yet to directly govern, is corporations.
Part 3…
Again from history: when the moguls of the gilded age squeezed Americans too tightly, government of the people returned power to the people through the anti-trust laws of the early 20th century and through the New Deal. The trend since the 1980s has been to relax government controls on business and let the corporations take a larger share of power and absolute wealth. This led to the near total abandonment of financial regulation in 1999 (Gramm-Leach-Bliley), which in turn led to the near total collapse of the entire financial system one year ago. Only big government, acting on behalf of the people - we elected the leaders - prevented complete chaos.
Part 4…
Back to health care. Right now health care delivery rests almost completely in the corporate sector. A true system of laissez faire delivery of medicine went out in the 1940s and 1950s with the rise of health insurance. This separated health care spending decisions from the doctor-patient relationship. With the rise of HMOs, the separation has gone even further. Most "savings" in this corporate medical delivery system have come from two sources: 1) doctors receiving lower payments for their services, and 2) denying medical treatment to patients. Both of these strategies do nothing to increase Americans' health; they only increase corporate profits.
Part 5…
The current plans being considered in Congress will chip away at the abusive practice of denying patient care. This should be a good thing. It is probably as much as can be expected in the current political environment. It will not, however, to anything to restore the primacy of the doctor-patient relationship and won't put a big dent in corporate profits, either; in other words, costs will remain high.
As disappointed as I am in this situation, it is a start. And now, after too much verbiage, I'll get to the point. I trust government more than I trust corporations. I can vote for government leaders; I can't for corporate leaders. I am part of the government; but stand pretty much powerless outside of the corporate realm. The real choice for Americans between making government work or surrendering ourselves to the power of corporate interests.
Changing Washington — the last time a president met all the campaign promises was in the 1800’s.
Its simply easier said than done.
And further, its a fiction to think that congress was ever really totally civil.
One must only visit the history of congress to see that.
They should be smarter by now, but congressmen still are not a good representative of the intelligence
of the voter base. Note Bachmann. Pretty much most of the Republicans bring the grade point down & a few of the Dems.
Klobuchar & Franken are anomalies in that respect.
Grayson nailed it.
Why would anyone want civility now - after all the crap that has been flung
by Republicans & the speed bumps they represent?
How long are they going to stonewall with no ideas?
If anything - start bringing what has been delivered.
Thanks for the link lojasmo!
Perhaps, DantheMan, you could list some of the lies and mischaracterizations of Conservatives that Rahm uses to destroy people he disagrees with on issues.
Karl Rove made a career out of doing exactly that.
If Rush isn't their leader why has EVERY Republican leader who has even slightly disagreed with him immediately apologized and retracted the statement. The reality is that unless Rush "blesses" you, you are dead in the GOP and everybody knows that. You think Republicans care what McConnel or Boehner have to say? You think they give a damn about Steeles opinion?
And yes traditionally the President is the head of his political party or at least has been so long as we have had political parties.
Kathy you sure change your tune… starting out complaining about a guy getting Tricare and now all of a sudden for government healthcare. Read the series of posts and judge for yourself what kind of anger she has… don't mistake being astounded by the sheer blatant hypocrisy of you and ConservaChick for anger like you mistook military benefits for welfare.
Interesting that you refuse to start the civil discussion but expect us to start. Do you suppose that is because you and the Republican party have no intention of being civil?
Exactly what I was talking about. It seems to be easier to deflect criticism by pointing fingers back than to admit the failings of one's own side.
Okay, I"ll start: I don't watch BIll Maher. Jeanine Garofolo let the many bad apples among the teabaggers color her view of all (if you don't think there was any racism to those protests, you are fooling only yourself). Rev. Wright's rhetoric is unnecessarily inflammatory, and Keith Olbermann (the few times I've watched him) goes for easy targets. Van Jones should have been smarter than to sign the "troofer" document. Your turn.
Starting a civil conversation.
Here is what I want from my government. And, I've recognized for a long time that this country is in a lot of trouble because we have drifted…no, not drifted…been pushed and seduced and bribed so far away from this model.
I want a government that touches lives as lightly as possible. That is careful about constraining itself to the boundaries imposed on it by the Constitution. A government that allows and protects…in fact, insists on, as much as possible, the rights and ability of people to accomplish things for themselves. To decide what they want and need. A government that gets out of the way in every way it can. Education calls this the "least restrictive environment". We could do with more of that. I believe this model of governance makes people better, stronger citizens and makes a better, stronger country.
I'm tired of a government that has given itself the right to confiscate at will more and more of the fruits of people's labors to grow itself through endless "do something" programs which, in many cases, do very little.
Of course, it makes sense, as I've tried to say civilly before, for a very few things to be done for the collective and paid for by the collective through taxes. Temporary safety nets should exist for those who find themselves in temporarily difficult life circumstances. I'm for that, okay? Helping people help themselves. But, how much is enough? Right now, it seems that there's no end to the "do something" mentality.
One need only look at the whole "health care" debacle to realize the futility of wanting those who comprise our, in this case Federal, government to fix things for us. The fact that Congress and the Administration have so royally screwed up in finding to solutions to a problem largely of their own invention, speaks volumes. We needed to find a way for about 10 million people who want to and can't afford to buy health coverage to be able to do so and to find some realistic ways to reduce the rise of health care costs for the rest of us. Real concerns. You mean that in this country we can't do something real and effective about them without ripping the populace apart!?!
Thousands of pages later, barely any of our Senators and Representatives know what they hell they have created but are trying to decide whether or not they should support or reject it. And they are deciding not by actually any longer considering the folks they were elected to represent but by taking stock of what will serve them best as they seek to keep the best (and, in some cases, the only) job they ever had.
Aren't we tired of this? Yeah…how do I say this again…I'm tired of the failings on both sides of the aisle. My trust and confidence in my government is gone. I see a Washington totally in bed with health and energy and financial corporations. Are you not tired of those with power cheating on their taxes and their wives, peddling influence and lining their pockets. Are we not tired of the arrogance, the sense of privilege, the entitlement that Washington feels to tells us what's best for us and then charge us for it? This country is being governed to death. And no health care plan will be able to fix that.
Is there any starting point here for agreement?
amuseinc…
…you don't listen, you don't think. (Gosh…a poem..)
What a warped and wacky world you inhabit. You are the poster child for what is wrong with this country today. Any ideas that don't fit your little personal paradigm are just too much for you to take in. You wouldn't know "civil" if you tripped over it. You wouldn't know "intelligent discourse" if it bit you. Perhaps you'll feel better once that hope-y/change-y thing kicks in and gives everyone everything they ever wanted. Any moment now, I'm sure.
No more mnpublius for me. Yup, you win. Yay for you. You sure showed me. Indeed, I give up. Why bother? Pearls before swine and all that.
I will leave you to your echo chamber.
And good luck to us all.
You are confusing civil, reasoned discourse with agreement. We don't have to agree on policy matters in order to communicate in a civil manner.
If disagreement is uncivil, or if you refuse to admit the possibility of reasoned discourse with someone with whom you disagree, then you are missing the point entirely.