A large majority of Americans view health reform as key to addressing the economy.
Nearly eight in 10 Americans (79.2%) believe it is important that President Obama includes health reform in plans to address the economy.
Let me piece this together for the conservatives reading the blog. The 2010 election will almost undoubtedly turn on the economy. However, the American public thinks health reform is critical to improving the economy, which means that if Republicans continue to obstruct health reform, they will face the voters’ wrath, and not Obama or the Democrats.
Should be a good game. See ya on the field. May the best team win.
We will. Thanks. By the way, the life of Americans and the health of the economy are not a game.
I think if the Republicans obstruct/Dems don’t get it done, the Dems will suffer more. They were elected to enact health care reform, and if they don’t it will be seen as their failure. If health care reform fails we lose all of our gains. Try not to let the Dems think that if they let the Republicans block reform it will somehow hurt Republicans more. It will hurt Democrats, in my opinion.
I totally agree. I would enact the nuclear option.
You don't understand the term. You win at failing.
Um, the Democrats have all the votes they need in Congress. They will own any failure that occurs.
Unaware that Lieberman and Sanders aren't democrats? You're cute, peanut.
Let's boil this down, shall we?
Health reform, as the bills have evolved, will come down to two things: Abortion and the Public Option. On both of those issues, the GOP is only part of the resistance. Prominent Democrats who voted to begin debate have clearly said the Public Option is a dealstopper for them.
A bill will either get passed without Abortion coverage and without the Public Option, or it will be derailed. If it is derailed, it will be because of the GOP AS WELL AS moderate Democrats.
Agreed, and if it is not passed it will be seen as a Dem failure. I don't see how else it could be viewed.
"Nearly eight in 10 Americans (79.2%) believe it is important that President Obama includes health reform in plans to address the economy."
But…do they want THIS version of "reform"…or do they want something that actually WILL improve the health care system? Not knowing more about how the survey question was worded, I find the results meaningless.
I, too, think problems in health care should be addressed. In realistic ways.
I don't know anyone who doesn't think this.
But, many don't think we should turn such a large portion of our economy over to Washington politicians and bureaucrats. Over 100 new departments, programs, etc. in the House Bill…now there's a good idea for the economy.
"Helping uninsured citizens afford coverage" was left in the dust a long time ago as these folks packed several thousand pages with extraneous health care nonsense.
We'll just have to wait and see if this approach serves them well next November.
Helping the uninsured was the admirable goal in the 90's. Things in health care are so bad now that helping the uninsured is an extremely important aspect of reform, but it is now just one small piece that needs to be fixed. If we don't fix this we will bankrupt our entire economy from local governments to federal to small business to corporate empires. It's complicated Kathy. Takes more than a 5 page fold out brochure with no numbers (Republican plan)
Wait… are you telling me that Candidate Obama wasn't quite truthful while on the campaign trail? Because I remember lots of talk about the uninsured but no talk at all about also needing thousands of pages of additional health care reform measures that would essentially put the government in charge of every aspect of our choices and our care, create a myriad of new programs, regulations, mandates, prohibitions, oversight and entitlement, taxing the productive in every way possible, still without being able to actually foot the bill for all of this new admirable-ness. And, apparently, without covering all of the uninsured.
Wow. Somehow, I don't think that kind of truth-telling would have played as well with the crowds - or the voters. I guess that's why the REAL plan, the NEW admirable goal, needed to be kept under wraps until after the election. Or, it would increasingly seem, until after it is passed.
Well. With apologies to Dr. Seuss, regarding the reform we were sold and
the reform that might be forced on us, I can only say this:
"Doesn't mean what he says,
Doesn't say what he meant,
Obama's a liar
100 per cent.
Well, certainly, the republicans haven't promoted substantive reform. That leaves Obama, Reid, and Pelosi's plans. Take your pick, chick.
Come on people. Still blaming Republicans when there are overwhelming majorities in Congress to get what you want? Listen, why dont the Democrats here just post up what power percentages they think they need to pass their agendas and lets see if we can get it for them in the NEXT election…that way, there will be no question.
Great point, Don Huizenga.
When the Republicans were squarely in charge, it was all their fault.
When Bush was in power with a Democratic congress, it was still the GOP's fault
When Obama took over, it was still all Bush's fault.
And now that Obama and a strong Democratic congressional margin are squarely in power, it is somehow still the Republicans' fault
The fact is that if this version of health reform was endorsed by all of the Democrats and not one Republican, it would still pass with flying colors. The questioning about this health bill, what it will cost us, and what the consequences could be are thankfully coming from both sides of the aisle.
If all the Democrats in the Congress accept their party's belief, as expressed by Hillary, Gov Vilsak and Obama, that community interests are more important than are individual interests, they will come together, even with a few like-believing Republicans, and pass Health Care as well as Cap and Tax and Card Check. Individual interests is philosophically without organized support. There are no spokesmen or women standing up for individual freedom, the resulting free market and America's prosperity. There are only shades of elite few who want to rule the many, the "I'm OK, you're not" kind of elite. The others are in fly-over country and despised by people like Martha Stewart and her elite. claysamerica.com
Nope. We have 58 democrats in the senate. That is two less than needed to override a veto.
Thanks for playing, but once again, you are either wrong, or lying.
You caught me on a technicality. Sorry. 60 Senators are in the Democratic Caucus. But yes, only 58 have the title of Democratic behind their name. Of the two others, one is actually more liberal than a typical Democrat, and the other was the Democratic VP nominee less than a decade ago.
But you got me, lojasmo. Since you "only" have 58 Democratic Senators along with a strong Democratic House majority and a Democratic President who was elected by a healthy margin, your party is completely absolved from any accountability on policies issues today.
It is the GOP's fault.
There is an awful lot about the nation's current condition that is the GOP's fault. For thirty years the GOP has allowed extremists to hold sway in it's governance. The GOP has abandoned the policy of fiscal prudence for the benefit of the elite. It has abandoned sane foreign policy for empire. It has abandoned reasonable social policy for the whores in the religious right. But most of all and perhaps most depressing, the GOP has lost it's ability to constructively effect public policy. The extremists in the GOP no longer care what will best serve the nation but instead, the GOP only cares how to play the electorate for their benefit.
Lieberman is a faithless douche who campaigned (against the democrat) upon universal healthcare. Now that it comes time to put up or shut up, he obstructs. I hope he gets stripped of his chair, and kicked from the caucus.
And yes…I got you, because you're frankly full of shit.
Hey Republicans… until the TWO wars that were started and funded off the books by your morons get resolved… IT IS YOUR FAULT!!! Sheesh you people have absolutely no shame or memory. President Obama has not been in office even a year yet trying to clean up messes from 8 years of Republican misrule and you think he's the problem. And people wonder why the American people don't trust Republicans…
This thread is about health reform. If you can't pass health reform with the current balance of power, then you are pushing the wrong health reform bill. Americans clearly want it. You control the White House and both houses of Congress for gods sake. Yet, the best you can do is blame Republicans.
Was a good technique when you actually were the underdog. Blaming the minority party for your failings today, however, is a head-scratcher.
amuseinc: see recent comment to Richard. Helpful time-saver strategy.
So glad you are concerned about time saving over thinking. Obama is far from perfect and we all know that. You on the other hand offer your pseudo intellectual blathering as if there was an answer in them.
Kathy you are most cowardly I have ever encountered. You are completely unable to do anything but repeat snide talking points like some Zombie followed up by self reverential vomit. You want to complain at Obama's every move and accuse him of some weird version of political immorality yet have no politician, no political party nor even a political philosophy that represents solutions. All you offer is a selfish worldview best left with the Robber Barons and children working in coal mines.
Cowardice and dishonesty are all the current crop of Reagan Republicans got.
http://www.radiumforums.com/showthread.php?t=29090 Free Viagra Online
So, you're saying you don't understand how legislation works.
The public option was ALWAYS in his platform Kathy. Just because you are uniformed/ignorant doesn't mean someone is lying.
Sort of like Chevy Chase talking to Jane Curtain?
The public option was ALWAYS in his platform
Was it? throughout the McCain / Obama healthcare debate in 2008, I don't recall the public option ever coming up. If it was in his platform, it was way, way down on the list of visible planks.
I understand exactly how it works…which is my objection to it.
Find a problem that needs addressing. Falsely inflate it into a crisis. (see: Global Warming-University of East Anglia)
Pretend to solve the crisis with ridiculous, bloated legislation that is really nothing more than an opportunity to suck additional people into the entitlement/coercion machine, making them susceptible to future vote-buying. Grow government control by “adding hundreds of new provisions, regulations, mandates, committees and other arbitrary bureaucratic inventions" while loudly touting a new money-saving efficiency.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/arti...
Start charging for the “reform” 3 years before delivering it to spin the costs. Have an executive spokesman with a loose connection to the truth assure everyone that this will be just what the doctor ordered.
Charles Krauthammer, perfect, we should should examine the accuracy of his analysis for the illegal Iraq war. Then let's have a link or two refuting the Global Warming crisis.
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/climate/globalwar...
Something like that. Only a link proving the oceans aren't actually rising putting billions of people at risk.
http://www.livescience.com/environment/080327-sma...
There's a angle you don't hear about much. Global warming resulting in the resurgence of smallpox.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/0704...
The first sentence says it all.
Health care is not a crisis? How can you say that and have any credibility Kathy.
From the Obama campaign's white paper. "Specifically, the Obama plan will: (1) establish a new public insurance program, available to Americans who neither qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP nor have access to insurance through their employers, as well as to small businesses that want to offer insurance to their employees"
Your talking points are directly from Lieberman, by the way.
http://decision.healthcare.com/obama-mccain/index...
You obviously didn't pay attention. No surprise, as your mind was clearly made up.
May I suggest, just for your enjoyment and edification, the Lord Monckton DVD entitled "Apocalypse. NO!" It might be fun to hear the guy that Al Gore is too chicken to debate about that award-winning science-fiction film in spite of numerous invitations.
Hey, did you hear Al's thoughts on "geothermal energy" on Conan…?!?
Okay…say this to yourself in a slightly dorky, slow Southern drawl:
"…there are these incredibly hot rocks, 'cause the interior of the earth is extremely hot, several million degrees…"
Gee whiz, Al. I can see why we all should feel great that you're the go-to guy on this whole climate/energy thing. Wish we could all be as science-y as you are.
Health care needs real, thoughtful, targeted reform in several key areas, but it is not a CRISIS for most Americans.
However, pass this legislation and give it a few years and then it will be.
She can't, and doesn't.
And your alternative is Conan O'Brian? I must say kathy is truly representative of today's GOP. Atta girl.
and then try to actually respond to what was said.
The rise in sea levels, while not a problem for the United States, poses grave and catastrophic consequences for low lying coastal areas in Asia and in the Pacific. Disruptions in agriculture and ecology along with the increase of severe weather will means millions of people will be put at risk. Billions if you factor in the de-stabilization of political systems trying to deal with wide spread starvation and disease. For this you counter with a Royal. No reference to any kind of respected scientific source. You counter with an amusing DVD by a Lord. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, suggesting Conan O'Brian.
Lord Monckton, the guy who advocates placing all HIV positive people in concentration camps. yeah, he's a fucking genius…just like you.
"there is only one way to stop AIDS. That is to screen the entire population regularly and to quarantine all carriers of the disease for life. Every member of the population should be blood-tested every month … all those found to be infected with the virus, even if only as carriers, should be isolated compulsorily, immediately, and permanently."
I suggest we start with you, Kathy.
I''m guessing the definition of crisis is when it's a problem for Kathy.
Richard…huh???
Try to read and think carefully before you start typing and then try to actually respond to what was said.
Richard…you could save yourself some time, if, when you post comments, you just said, "Hey…you know that stuff I always say?…well, consider it said again!"
Yo Richard -
You are the party in power. You don't need to play the underdog card anymore. All that crap the Republicans do? Your party can kick thier butts up and down, side to side. The GOP is virtually irrelevent… at least as irrelelant as a political party has been in a generation or two.
Yet, you and your comrades spend their time talking about how the minority party is making is hard for you to govern with a clean sweep majority. 2010 will be here soon enough, and you'll be back in your comfort zone of talking about how it is the other guy's fault.
I'll take your non-response as an admission of agreement with my entire post.
Well said, DtM. But, sometimes an inferiority complex exists because one IS actually inferior. Democrats have had no good new ideas for a very long time so it's tough sledding for them right now.
DtM you're being purposely dishonest.
http://100days.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/filib...
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29581.h...
Of course the Democrats could pass the necessary legislation with 51 votes.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/politics/2009...
But it would be better if both parties could reach some compromise and this is what President Obama is trying to achieve. I've reached the opinion that this isn't possible. The GOP is far more concerned with playing politics and damn 48,000 Americans who die every year for the lack access to health care and damn the costs Americans pay for a broken system. The GOP would rather teabag each other. I find it interesting you use the term "comrade" for me. Is that some backhanded way of calling me a communist? Not that I mind, but if you don't have the courage use the word then perhaps you should fore go any allusion to it. But that's a characteristic of the GOP nowadays. Cowardice and dishonesty are all hallmarks of Reagan Republicans. The only hope for the GOP is to hit rock bottom like any common drunk. At that point, when the GOP has lost any ability to contribute, it can then admit it has a problem and begin the long struggle back to the halls of power. All it will take is for you and all your fascist friends to admit Reagan was a criminal and should've died in the same jail cell, Nixon should've died in. And the same one George W should be occupying right now. All it will take is for you and all your fascist friends to admit supply side economics is a fraud and is responsible for the greatest redistribution of wealth from the middle class to the wealthy elite in this nation's history. All it will take is for you and all your fascist friends to be honest. I realize that's not possible yet. Like a common drunk, you're not to that point yet where you can admit how fucked up you are. I have confidence though. I firmly believe you will get there and be able to, someday, what a fucked up liar you are.
Richard -
I'm sure you are a good person. While I find your posts to contain more vitriol than intellect, the fact you even show up here means that you must care about this country. Thank you for caring.
But I maintain that if it is a good health reform bill, a bill that truly reflects the desires and need of the American people, then you don't need a filibuster-proof Senate to pass it. Our Government should reflect the will of the people. The people want health reform, but not a Public Option without boundaries or taxpayer-funded abortions. Just calling it like it is, Richard. The problem isn't with the minority party. The problem is with the specifics of this flawed bill.
Richard, you and your party can either piss and moan, or you can start acting like the clean-sweep majority party that you are. It will be curious to see which it will be in coming weeks.
Blow me very much, DtM. You are correct that the Democratic party can get this done without the Republicans but it would be better if the Republicans would try and contribute instead of just being the party of NO. If I could offer a piece of advice to the President regarding his attempts to include the Republicans in this, I would say, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. You can drown the stupid motherfucker, though. That's an option"
From one of Richard's links:
"The routine use of the filibuster as a matter of everyday politics has transformed the Senate’s legislative process from majority rule into minority tyranny. Leaving party affiliation aside, it is now possible for the senators representing the 34 million people who live in the 21 least populous states — a little more than 11 percent of the nation’s population — to nullify the wishes of the representatives of the remaining 88 percent of Americans."
Is this what democracy looks like? Maybe the actual number of people represented by GOP obstructionist senators is closer to 25% of total the population, but the point still stands that these red state voters have very disproportionate power. I think the filibuster should be eliminated and am willing to take a chance on returning to a GOP majority passing its tax cutting agenda. In fact I'd like to see an honest discussion of their bankrupt, disproven policies.
39 Democrats voted against this health reform bill in the House. Would they also qualify as the "stupid motherfucker" in your analogy?
If so, you are sounding eerily similar to the purity test ideologues that we just finished bashing in a different post. They happened to be righties, your a lefty, but you often actually fall into the same camp in the scheme of things.
DtM you're being purposely dishonest again. The tale of the tape was as follows. 219 Dems for, 39 against and 1 Rep for, 176 against. But here's the real important part of the story, the bill came up for a vote. 39 Democratic congress-people got the chance to vote. The bill was debated, amended, and then decided upon.
http://blog.lib.umn.edu/cspg/smartpolitics/2009/1...
I wouldn't expect unanimity in the Democratic party on this as the Democratic party is a party that allows dissent and difference of opinion. Look at Leiberman and the fact he's still chair of a committee and still allowed to caucus with the Democrats. Pull his kind of games in the Republican party and see what that gets you.
One Republican vote. Anh Cao committed the unforgivable sin as a Republican, he voted his conscience. He then had to weather a storm of Republican vitriol. Never mind his district was devastated by Katrina and his constituents are vastly in need of the public option. So, you want to bring up a purity test.
In the Senate, the GOP knows they can't win so we're presented with the necessary step of 60 votes to invoke cloture. The bill itself only needs a simple majority of 51 to pass but to bring it to a vote will mean getting past the minority's parliamentary games. Games they aren't really concerned about winning, it's just a delaying tactic. The need to defeat our President Obama on this for political gain, nothing else. Meanwhile, people are dying. Meanwhile costs to those least able to pay are rising.
At this point, the 39 legislators in the Democratic party who voted against the bill aren't really important. Your party, the GOP has got to develop some sense of conscience though or it will be doomed to minority status. It will take you and your comrades to develop some sense of conscience.
Thanks for the post, Richard. You raise many very good points.
I can't argue with the fact that a bill should be able to come to a vote. I have advocated the same thing. I'm happy this bill is now on the floor.
But maybe — just maybe — the dissent from many moderates is about the bill, and not about Obama. Let's give people like Susan Collins and Ben Nelson the benefit of the doubt. Support health reform doesn't mean you have to support this bill.
I might be naive, but I believe this debate is still about the merits of the bill, not about killing something just to spite Obama.
How else do you explain the misrepresentations, i.e. death panels? And this point isn't just about health care, this GOP is actively and aggressively trying to make this administration fail, for purely political reasons. The war party of 2001 has turned into a party of surrender monkeys in 2009. The party of spend like there's no tomorrow has suddenly found Jesus and fiscal responsibility? Please.
The GOP is simply trying to make this President, our President fail. This is at a time when we desperately need government to work.
For example, this month the Senate unanimously passed an extension of unemployment benefits. It took the breaking of three filibusters and five weeks of debate to pass the bill while, at the same time, 200,000 Americans lost their benefits.
200,000 were without any kind of income, while the GOP filibustered, then once broken, voted for the bill.
Explain that one to me, please. Your party and you by proxy, are without values, without empathy, and without credibility and until you begin to work for the nation by straightening out your party, you're just an obstacle that needs to be gone around.
Your party and you by proxy
That's where you lose me, Richard. I'm an advocate of balance and moderation. I believe that no person should ever be so blinded by a political party that it becomes their identity.
If I had to name a top 10 list of my favorite Senators in DC, Kent Conrad, Evan Bayh, Ben Nelson, and Joe Lieberman would all make the list. Does that really sound like somone who is without values? Or does that, perhaps, sound like someone who puts the individual before the political party. Because I do. You are first an individual citizen, and only then are you perhaps part of a political organization, and perhaps not.
By the way, why in your examples do you never talk about the cost of anything? You are very good at citing the benefit or the group who will be assisted, but that is only 1/2 of the equation. To me, how to pay for it is the other half. To you, I suspect that it is merely an afterthought.
For example, this month the Senate unanimously passed an extension of unemployment benefits. It took the breaking of three filibusters and five weeks of debate to pass the bill while, at the same time, 200,000 Americans lost their benefits.
Explain the GOP's behavior here.
I can't tell you what each member's reason was for filibustering. For some, it may have been because it is being funded by an employer payroll tax, which may further prolong hiring. For others, it may be because the bill enables someone to get unemployment for 2 straight years, the longest in our nations history. For most, I believe I read the reason was they wanted an opportunity to vote on amendments, thereby the procedural delay.
Our nation's Senators aren't sheep, they act in interest of their districts or their beliefs. Ask two Centrist Senators why they oppose HarryCare and you'll get two different answers. Kent Conrad supports health reform but opposes a bill that further cements in the current Medicare rate system, which acutely penalizes healthcare providers in his state. Joe Lieberman supports health reform but opposes a bill that includes a public option with unlimited financial exposure for the taxpayer. In a simplistic view, however, these two men are lumped together as "no" votes, even though their reason for no couldn't be more different.
you never talk about the cost of anything
I believe I have DtM, so yet another example of your dishonesty. I have mentioned in the past that, personally, I'm not so interested in a lower cost system but one that provides universal access with decent care. Emergency rooms don't provide good ongoing preventative care and that's okay, because that's not their function. I believe HR676 is the best, most workable solution but, unfortunately, the nation isn't there yet. If every wage earner in the country were to pay into the government, what they're paying into insurance companies, the whole system would be paid for. Addition to that, I would like to see a 75% cut in the DoD budget and a healthy increase in capital gains taxes along with a substantial increase in income taxes for those making over 500,000 dollars with a 91% income tax on income above and beyond 3 million. There, done and done. Now, let's talk about the costs of doing nothing. It cost me a good friend. Now I realize she probably wasn't worth much to you and your world but I liked her. She was a good worker and a good mother and a good wife. She was the sole provider for her husband and herself. He wasn't a bum. He had been badly injured in a plane crash some years earlier and got laid off as a result. They didn't have much but they got by. Good, hard working, bill paying people getting by on very little and asking for less. She had a laugh that was loud and full and ridiculous. It never took long to figure out Pam was somewhere in the room. It took the cancer about 10 weeks to put her down. She finally got so sick and was feeling so bad, she bit the bullet and went to the ER. I guess the docs were shocked to see how far the cancer had progressed when she finally went in. Colon cancer has a very good survival rate if caught early. Pam's wasn't because she couldn't afford to go to a doctor. But she wasn't worth much. She wasn't really anyone important. Just another worker bee getting by on very little and asking for less.
You've never really read a single word I've written, have you?
“Is that some backhanded way of calling me a communist? Not that I mind…”
“If every wage earner in the country were to pay into the government, what they're paying into insurance companies, the whole system would be paid for. Addition to that, I would like to see a 75% cut in the DoD budget and a healthy increase in capital gains taxes along with a substantial increase in income taxes for those making over 500,000 dollars with a 91% income tax on income above and beyond 3 million. There, done and done.”
Richard, I'm sorry you had to be born here.
Tell you what….buy a plane ticket. Go some place where all your fantasies are already in place. Lots of us don't agree with your vision for America and we will fight til our last breath to make sure it doesn't become a reality.
Lots of us don't agree…
And since that "lots" amounts to 1 or 2 percent, I think I'll stay, thanks. Meanwhile, start thinking about what to do with that rust fund of yours.
Richard, I'm sorry you had to be born here.
Here's the really hilarious thing about Kathy's post. The America that the teabagee, Kathy will fight until her last breath to defend against was the economic environment of the US, the year I was born. Ike was President and the US was experiencing healthy, robust economic growth.
Read a single word or read every single word,, it doesn't really make any difference because you never really say anything. You never site supporting data, you never reference supporting opinion. Nothing but snide, condescending snark. So really nothing of any value. Just Kathy being Kathy.
The sad fact is that I have read your blather and none of it is supported by a single fact other than you think you represent a majority of Americans… which is a simple delusion feuled by too much Fox News.
Richard and amuseinc…here's some facts from today…right now.
But, of course, they're not facts you like…so they're not the right facts.
But the fact is that the majority of Americans do not want the health care reform the Democrats are serving up.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/po...
Here's another fact: Those opposed know exactly why they are. They are informed and understand that the negative ramifications of this legislation far outweigh the positives. They're paying close attention. They are angry at Congressional incompetence or corruption…take your pick. They know this is a boondoggle.
Many who "favor" the legislation quit paying attention after last January and have no clue as to what is about to hit them. Health care reform!? Sure! Sounds great! They think this legislation is all about helping people who can't buy insurance. But the legislation won't affect them….
Those are the facts.
While I'm not always in lockstep with Kathy — I see my views as a few notches toward center from hers — she makes an important clarification do not want the health care reform the Democrats are serving up
This isn't about wanting health reform or not wanting health reform. The messaging on the left is trying to make this about either wanting to improve the system or not, as if there was only one choice… if you wanted to reform healthcare, then surely this bill is the way to do it.
I have heard of none of the reasonable centrists — the ones truly in control of this bill's fate — say we don't need reform. The problem is that there are a hundred different possible ways to reform, and many believe the Democratic bill is one of the undesireable ways.
Lieberman, Bayh, Conrad, Snowe, Collins, Nelson — they are all for healthcare reform, and they would all vote against this bill in its current form.